#32 - Iyad Al-Attar: Revolutionizing Urban Living - Prioritizing Air Quality for Healthier Cities

A conversation with Iyad Al-Attar

We discussed the intersection of sustainable urban development and air quality and how zooming out from the building level brings a different perspective on air quality.

As you might expect, we discuss the state-of-the-art and performance gaps in the filter sector.

It was an expansive and fascinating conversation with a prolific figure in air quality and filtration in the industry.

Iyad is a mechanical engineer, air quality consultant, and a visiting academic fellow at the School of Aerospace, Transport, and Manufacturing at Cranfield University.

He is the strategic director, instructor, and advisory board member of the
Waterloo Filtration Institute.

In 2020, Eurovent Middle East appointed Dr. Al-Attar as the first associated consultant for air filtration and most recently he became the Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) patron for EUROVENT.

A strong advocate for global government to play a significant role in the governance of embedding air quality monitoring and enhancement as a pillar of the built environment.

He is reading for an MSc in sustainable urban development for air quality inclusion at the University of Oxford, where his research addresses the importance of air quality inclusion as a rudiment of sustainable urban development.

Iyad Al-Attar LinkedIn
Waterloo Filtration Institute
Eurovent
Oxford University

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Air Quality Matters inside our buildings and out. We already possess many of the tools and much of the knowledge necessary to make a difference. I believe the key to our success lies in the conversations we have and the way we share this knowledge. I'm Simon Jones, and this is episode 32 of the Air Quality Matters podcast, coming up a conversation with Yad Alatar, a mechanical engineer, air quality consultant and visiting academic fellow in the School of Aerospace, transport and Manufacturing at Cranfield University. He is the strategic director, instructor and advisory board member of the Waterloo Filtration Institute and in 2020, eurovent Middle East appointed Dr Alatar as the first associated consultant for air filtration and most recently, he became the indoor air quality patron for Eurovent.

Speaker 1: 1:21

A strong advocate for global government to play a significant role in the governance of embedding air quality monitoring and enhancement as a pillar of the built environment. He is reading for his MSc in Sustainable Urban Development for Air Quality Inclusion at the University of Oxford currently, where his research addresses the importance of air quality inclusion as a rudiment of sustainable urban development. We discussed the intersection of sustainable urban development and air quality and how zooming out from the building level brings a different perspective on air quality. As you might expect. We also talked about the state of the art and performance gaps of filter deployment. It was an expansive and fascinating conversation with a prolific figure in air quality infiltration. Thanks for listening. As always, do check out the sponsors in the show notes and at airqualitymattersnet. This is a conversation with Iyad Al-Attar. Should we view our relationship with air quality and the built environment in a different way, do you think? Do you think there's some value in zooming out on that relationship that we don't currently do, taking it from a building level to something more broad?

Speaker 2: 2:47

I think this is a great question. I think what we should do is two things on the onset of this change. One is fix our relationship with the environment and our planet, and the second one is widening the lens. When we talk about urban development, we have to widen the lens to look at it from an air quality point of view, from health and well-being point of view, so we can fulfill the promise to the dwellers when you say, look, I'm going to urbanize you from poor rural areas to cities. I cannot cluster them in cities that are polluted. So air quality certainly should be not only a lens, not just an ad hoc only when a problem arises or when I'm interested to get a specific certification.

Speaker 2: 3:39

I do a lot of consultancies around air quality and everybody says why are you trying to do this? There has to be a reason. You cannot just be driven by. You know your ethical compass and the reason is either because they had specific contamination or they had the specific issue where they had to shut down.

Speaker 2: 4:01

I think the way we look at air quality is certainly as a pillar, something like when you construct a house and you go get it from the contractor. They'll ask you here you can flush the toilet, you can run the tap water, you can turn on the switches on and off to get the lights on, but do you ask them about air quality? What are the metrics? And if the metrics are only particle capture, is formaldehyde an issue? Is NOx and SOx emissions are an issue? So I think air quality need to go on the front seat, be a pillar and set itself a seat on the table, not only in edge rack but in buildings, if, and only if, we think of buildings to be healthy, sustainable and safe to occupy and that's interesting, you bring sustainability into the picture, because you said there right at the very beginning that somehow we need to fix our relationship with the environment, and sustainability and ventilation should be a pillar within that.

Speaker 1: 5:14

I'm guessing that the two are inextricably linked somehow truly, you know.

Speaker 2: 5:20

I mean there are a lot of incidents. We focus on clean air and we kind of overlook or somehow you know it's embedded that clean air means fresh air. That's not true. You know, we sometimes put a monitor and we look at particulates. From a particulate point of view, you may have a fit to occupy a built environment, but do you have the carbon dioxide, for example, within the allowable level? I think ventilation and filtration, along with the air conditioning and heating ventilation system in general, needs to be integrated. We cannot look in isolated performances, isolated performances Today in every single sustainability, let's say adventure.

Speaker 2: 6:08

We talk about integration of technologies. It's not the kind of conversation I could have had with my grandfather or even my father 20 or 30 years ago, because the technology now to integrate edge vac filtration, ventilation systems, this is accessible, it's available and it's affordable. So, yes, we need systems to operate within the built environment and the building envelope, capable of responding to two things any variations in indoor air quality and human occupancy. We got the technology. It's not utopian, we can do it. Just all a matter of sitting all on the same table Government officials, policymakers, designers, even users, educate the public. This can be done. So yes, we can do it. Ventilation is a core issue.

Speaker 1: 7:02

And part of that around. What you're saying is, if we zoom out and start looking at this stuff, perhaps at a more cityscape or urban planning perspective, that there's a lens that we can apply to this subject matter beyond the building level. Is that what you're saying? That there's some approach at a planning perspective that involves much broader set of stakeholders than we're currently involving when we're thinking about air quality and air quality outcomes?

Speaker 2: 7:34

exactly. You know, simon, let me take you back three or four years ago, when we had the first wave of the pandemic. And then, after this, we're allowed to go to shopping malls. Then all I start seeing is this human occupancy maximum limit. I was so happy, but I was frustrated because we should have had this not driven by the pandemic but driven by the science of what is my heating and ventilation, air conditioning, what is my air changes per hour? Then I'll say this place, given this system, with this filtration system and the ACH, the air changes per hour, this is fit to occupy a maximum of 10 people. Same thing can be applied to schools. Same thing can be applied to public transport, shopping malls. You know, we only started to look at these metrics only when they became a problem.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Governance of all these issues is not that difficult and I'll tell you let's say you know an evidence why it's not difficult because when the pandemic came about, mandating masks and vaccinations were done almost overnight. You do it, you can go out. You don't do it. You know there are consequences Flying, you know you got to keep your mask on all the time. So I think what we need to do is bring air quality as a design parameter in the urban environment. I need to know when I have a building and I have a work environment, residential schools, we need to make sure we engineer the human occupancy. We cannot leave it for the preferences of the owners or the facility management. We have to have a metric. This is why air quality governance, before that inclusion in the urban design, should be embedded from day one.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Yeah, it's interesting you talk about that air quality governance.

Speaker 1: 9:27

It's a conversation I've had a lot recently where the conversation is bound around this do we need more guidance frameworks to determine good outcomes within the built environment?

Speaker 1: 9:42

And I have to say I'm I'm split in some ways.

Speaker 1: 9:46

I understand how providing metrics around air quality can help us define outcomes in our buildings much better, but I, like you, have been around the built environment for many years and we've had metrics for the built environment that they've not been air quality ones necessarily, but they've been air change ones and liters, a second per person ones and filter efficiency ones and plenty of mechanical, simple type metrics that we are supposed to have delivered buildings to and we've objectively failed to do that, largely speaking. Or, if we have done that at some point, we've objectively failed to maintain those systems over the long term, to keep delivering those rates. So we've got quite a poor track record in the built environment in many ways in knowing what a metric should be and manifestly not getting there for large parts of our built environment. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that. I get what you're saying completely when we talk about, you know, starting to define air quality standards, but we haven't been able to stand over the standards we have had yet, have we in a lot of cases?

Speaker 2: 11:05

You know I think you're putting your finger on a critical issue. You know I'm a little bit harsh on the pandemic. I've been in this field since late 90s. I've spoken to newspapers, I've authored articles in several magazines in North America, the Middle East and Europe. I've authored articles in several magazines in North America, the Middle East and Europe.

Speaker 2: 11:26

I've always warned that one day we may face what we've faced in the pandemic. People said, oh, you know, it's not going to happen. So two things to look at here. The pandemic invaded our cities, finding us so conditioned to thermal comfort. If I can provide thermal comfort to you, simon, you're happy. If I don't, after two minutes you're going to call facility management and say look, it's too hot, it's too cold. But if I subject you to high concentration of PM1, 2.5, a little bit of formaldehyde, you know, a mix of ammonia, nox and SOx emission or any other pollutants, radon for example, is that an allowable sin? Who would hold me responsible for doing so? So two questions here.

Speaker 2: 12:15

Post-pandemic, can I ask a frank question to all the great task forces that have updated our filtration, energy efficiency and ventilation standards have we perfected ventilation rates today? Have we perfected filtration formulations, efficiencies, stages? Are we ready for the next pandemic? Are we pandemic proof? We pandemic proof? You know I'm not being harsh, I'm just trying to challenge experts and myself to say are we going to be pandemic proof next time we get this around? And it's not going to be a hundred years. Most experts now they say, or projection, it's not going to take a hundred years to get the next pandemic. That's one, and it's naive to think that you know it's every hundred year kind of event. So that's one point. The second point is what if we did not have the pandemic, we would probably be sitting down exercising the same sort of standards or poorly maybe, adhering.

Speaker 2: 13:20

Now we talk about adhering to standards that didn't work In certain parts of the world. People don't really adhere to standards. They don't use them. So we have another problem. So I think what we really need to do is quantify, monitor air quality throughout.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Continuous air quality monitoring is going to be the name of the game. It's going to flip everything to a much more wider perspective. We put back things to basic principles. It's not only the sense but also the science of air filtration and air quality. You say come on the exam. You're going to pass as heating, ventilation, air conditioning and filtration systems. Filter air performance. I'm going to have a monitoring system that's going to tell me if this place is fit to occupy. Is it optimized for two people or 10, or 20 or five? Human occupancy is an issue. So I think we focus so much on filtration being the only solution for indoor air quality, and then we spend so much time and money.

Speaker 2: 14:20

During the pandemic, our appetite to spend money on filtration was amazingly great. Everybody was so happy to spend so much money and I call it the filtration delirium. Come on, let's buy so much or a lot of filters. The stress on the supply chain of filter media has been massive. Then the question is are we looking for frequent air filter supply or air filter replacement? And the answer is no. We're looking for sustainable air filter performance that is fit for purpose, appropriate filter selection with monitoring, so you know what you're up against. You don't go to the doctor and say, doctor, I have a headache, give me that medication. You've been the patient, you've been doctor, I have a headache, give me that medication. You've been the patient, you've been the doctor and you've been the pharmacist. So we need to put it in perspective. I think I'm one of the, let's say, specialists in the field, that I don't think we've learned all the lessons from the pandemic yet.

Speaker 1: 15:21

No well, you know, I think it goes without saying, we'll be on unpacking and picking at the lessons of a global pandemic for a decade or more, I imagine, trying to understand.

Speaker 1: 15:33

You know the causes and framing and outcomes of a lot of that.

Speaker 1: 15:37

I think you're absolutely right, um, and I think it's also another interesting perspective and maybe sits within this changing relationship perspective that you've got, where one of the challenges, with as simple a picture as I paint of aerobic performance, of air change rates and flow rates we've known what they should be for years it does actually require people with skills and infrastructure to be able to go and actually measure those flow rates and know whether they're performing correctly or not.

Speaker 1: 16:10

And the reality is most of our built environment is kind of run to failure. You know, an engineer will only get a call when a hevac system starts making a knocking noise or they hear something running around in the duct work. But, um, you know, generally speaking, it's not something that's looked at annually or biannually to measure performance. And I think air quality monitoring and our new understanding of air quality is going to reframe that, largely because it's a lot easier to have a little white box on a wall measuring ventilation performance than it is to be sending engineers around once a year climbing up and down ladders and not being able to gain access to certain parts of the ventilation system. It kind of changes the narrative a little bit, this new visibility that we're seeing within the built environment of air quality.

Speaker 2: 17:02

I'm also ambitious because not only I'm calling for continuous air quality monitoring to be a must and a standard operation, I'm also asking to correlate that with air filter performance coming out of the air track system, Because this way I can hold the air filter performance. Whether manufacturers, installers, contractors, facility management responsible Say look, I get this air quality when the filter performance is doing this. Any degradation in filter performance should reflect on the air quality. But air quality degradation can you know, more than one aspect can contribute to it. If you have high VOCs, for example, air quality will go down, but you might be doing very well in terms of particulates, but you're not doing very well in terms of gaseous pollutants, or your humidity is high, or your temperature is not within the limits or your carbon dioxide.

Speaker 2: 18:00

This is what I always say distinguish the air quality issues. Is it a ventilation issue? Is it a filtration issue? Is it somewhere a combination of both, but without understanding what we're up against in terms of physical and chemical characterization of the pollutants indoors, correlating this to the outdoor environment, the urban environment the building is located at, and then making that connection, then we have we are only then at that position in a way to have optimized filter performance, sustainable edge vac system performance and indoor quality. That's sweat to occupy.

Speaker 1: 18:44

And who does that? Yeah, who does that work? Because it's a sector that perhaps it sits somewhere between occupational hygiene and engineering and environmental scientists. Like there's the built environment and indoor air quality. Within the built environment and its relationship with outdoor air quality is a complex mix of skills, isn't it? So what you're painting there is a picture of understanding the risks from all of those perspectives. That's quite a multi-disciplinary approach, potentially, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 19:24

it is, and you know I like the question that you've asked. Uh, I think it's good to do it now, but it's not enough, simon, to appeal to the ethical compass of people like I. Come in and tell you, simon, how would you like to have your kids inhale the best air quality, and then I'm always appealing to your personal experiences. I think this tactic has been tried for a long time, you know, with a very low success rate, I believe. In governing air quality, I want the government to do a job, I want practitioners to do their own job and people who provide the technologies come and sit on the same table. There are two risks here. One, that the government can promise indoor air quality beyond what the available technologies can deliver. Two, the technologies can deliver so much that the governments cannot actually legislate, so there has to be that meeting.

Speaker 2: 20:27

This is what actually took me to the University of Oxford to investigate this. I've given so many lectures in the past I would say 15, 20 years In the past seven years, you know. I've always tried to get people in the audience, whether in the university or in companies, to excite them to come and say investigate this from an urban lens, widen the scope, look at air quality from a scope of urban planning. When I didn't find anyone, I decided to do it myself. So I went to Oxford University, undertaking now a master in urban development, where I look at urban governance or air quality governance and the urban planning, because we need to have everybody to participate. You know, everybody talks about sustainable urban development. Everybody likes to embrace sustainability, everybody has a role in embracing sustainability, but in essence, we need to build a culture of sustainability. I cannot go to an existing building that is contaminated, aging edge, wax system, infiltration is happening from the windows and you know people are getting sick. Infiltration is happening from the windows and people are getting sick and then say, look, you need HIPAA filtration or you need five-stage filtration or you need a sorbent to tackle gases, because you're only focusing on particle capture.

Speaker 2: 21:58

I think we need to govern this, but again I say this governments single-handedly won't be able to get all the job done. Everybody got a role to play and we have to do it. So, to answer your question, it needs a collective approach where everybody can participate. I don't mind if companies come and say, okay, this is a great thing, I want to make money out of it, it's a business model. We have the business model that can be governed by municipalities where, for example, schools you get to achieve or meet and exceed the air quality in schools set by the municipality, endorsed by the Ministry of Education.

Speaker 2: 22:41

I give you a license fit to occupy Other schools. They say I'm sorry, I don't have the budget. The government will say well, you fill an application, we'll help you to retrofit through tax credits, interest-free loans and this way we can get people to work at it. You meet the standards or the requirements? I renew your license. You meet and exceed, I give you additional incentives. If you don't, then you have to come back and report that and help can be provided. So one last point on this, simon we have to have a change in behavior. All the technology in the world and all the participation of the government can be very, very difficult to integrate when, for example, people smoke indoors or people start running other activities that you know emit pollutants. So it's a multi-parameter sort of approach that you know.

Speaker 1: 23:39

In a way, you have also underlying parameters that are very difficult to highlight way you have also underlying parameters that are very difficult to highlight, yeah, but that's really interesting and I'm I'm conscious that I'm part of the way there in understanding what you mean by urban planning in relation to air quality, but I I'm also conscious that I might be that might be missing some things here.

Speaker 1: 24:03

So I I think it'd be interesting just to unpack a little bit what your perspective on what that means, because I think my natural leap when I think about urban planning, thinking about air quality at a city level, my mind immediately goes to outdoor air quality type initiatives, low emission zones and, you know, dealing with traffic measures and that kind of thing. But I I'm guessing this is more sophisticated than that. This, this is um to kind of steal, a canadian uh process or french canadian process, the design charrettes where, where you kind of bring in multiple stakeholders governance and users of spaces and architects and planners and municipalities and you bring everybody together and think about outcomes at a broader level is. Is that the kind of thing that you're talking about, taking it up from the building level and thinking about all of the things that impact air quality outcomes within that urban environment. Am I close? Yes, understanding of that?

Speaker 2: 25:21

let me, you know. Let's put it in perspective. You know, I mean, how many uh license or licenses you need to obtain to uh to start a coffee shop, you know. Or how many uh permits you need to uh get when you run a restaurant, you know. It's the same thing. Uh, air quality adherence, of course. Course we're going to be talking about standards and their fitness and how appropriate they are to serve the building.

Speaker 2: 25:53

But we need to have that permit, because not having the permit somehow suggests that exposing your assignment to poor air quality is an allowable sin. You know, there's a big difference between saying I'm going to do it because I want to go to bed, I feel good about myself, it's an ethical thing, and the other premise that, look, it's the law, it's not just out of generosity, you're doing it to me. No, you have to fulfill this, to have a permit. Otherwise, you know, clustering people in you can have the best air quality, but maybe for five people, but through the engineering we would tell you as municipality. This is why the municipalities and the government sectors they need to to have education, public needs, to have this awareness Part of what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 26:48

I think your podcasts have been great, bringing the air quality from various perspectives from the ventilation, air conditioning, heating, filtration, monitoring. We didn't have that 10 years ago and five years ago. So this is why the awareness and education it's very difficult now. When I did my PhD 20 years ago and five years ago, so this is why the awareness and education you know it's very difficult now. You know, when I did my PhD 20 years ago I went, I was starting to look for a university that will allow me to do air filtration research. Very difficult, you know it's not a topic that is like energy efficiency that everybody is in it or sustainability.

Speaker 2: 27:27

Now you know the pandemic served that purpose, but again, we have to be clear Air quality research, infiltration research and building research, but specifically the first two have been underfunded, so we had to wait until the pandemic to get the money. Now the pandemic, I'm sure we're going to be talking about it. We paid heavily, and why? I'm very, very upset because we shouldn't have. You know, curfews imposed, cities locked, people's life lost and you know we went to total economic paralysis. We did that.

Speaker 2: 28:09

Having the technology but not having the practices, not having, you know, the pandemic is the worst time to start tweaking standards. It's the worst time to start saying, oh, you know, is it airborne or not? Come on, assume it's airborne and you know, take the worst case scenario and do the best you've got. I think today we are in a position where we need to look at it as an issue. It's not enough to have insulation and a building envelope that is either air conditioned or providing heating for it. I need to know what air quality you're exposing my family to when I send my kids to school. I'd like to know that People in the shopping mall or in a gymnasium.

Speaker 2: 28:57

We cannot give a cold shoulder to air quality. It matters and it's a pillar. You don't do it. You cannot have a permit that is fit to occupy, you do it. You get it done, fine. Otherwise we shut down your place. Fine, otherwise we shut down your place. I know it sounds a little bit harsh, but if we do not enforce it along with the government, designers and facility management and have an incentive program so people, when you meet and exceed, they can actually get an award for it. Have you ever heard, simon, of the best indoor air quality award? You know why don't we have that, you know, so people can go the extra mile and do the job and beyond.

Speaker 1: 29:36

Yeah, I think it's interesting that perspective, the enforcement perspective. It clearly doesn't happen enough and I've been getting more and more robust in this position. I think, as the years have gone on, that this has become a consumer protection problem. We're simply not getting the built environment that we're paying for, and something has to fundamentally change. There is a gap between what governments and municipalities and cities are paying for through their grants and schemes and public buildings and spaces and in their investment in housing and regulations, and what they're actually getting, because every time this is looked at we see massive gaps in performance and at some point you've got to draw a line in the sand and say we're simply not getting what we're paying for and we need to start enforcing that. There's the stick that isn't being used enough.

Speaker 1: 30:35

I also like that perspective of incentives, and one of the things you mentioned was about grants and facilitating organizations that do achieve standards and helping them and encouraging them more. The risk I suppose to still man the other side of that argument is that the air quality is not distributed equally and the poor and most vulnerable in society suffer the worst from air quality. And the risk you have when you start incentivizing good performance is, you create a bigger split, a bigger divide between those that can afford good air quality and can achieve those standards and those that can't, and you make it harder and harder for people that are struggling in the lower socioeconomic classes to find the schools with good air quality and to find the workplaces with good air quality, and those that are in the better space can achieve more. So we don't want that either. We need equity and, as I was talking to Douglas Booker there just this week, that environmental justice element to air quality as well has got to be there, hasn't it?

Speaker 2: 31:52

Exactly, and I'm glad you brought up environmental justice, I think. First part, let's look at, you know, those who cannot afford an HVAC system, those who rely on opening a window for natural ventilation. Their indoor air quality equals their outdoor air quality. And now let me go and unpack this. You know, I don't have any gun If I'm poor. I don't have any gun in terms of, you know, putting multi-stage filtration in an air-to-air system that will protect me. So I'm just going to inhale what everybody else on the rich side of things industries, you know, and so on it's just exhausted because I have no say, I don't have a control. I can open a window, inhale that or die. So I think we've got to do more than one thing. One is make the technology affordable. You know, I think if you look at air conditioning years ago and today, you know we've come down in price. I think. I think humanity is doing at air conditioning years ago and today. You know we've come down in price. I think humanity is doing so well in this. Look at air quality monitoring, looking at the monitoring today that you can maybe purchase for even $100 or $1,000, compared to having the technology not even existing 30 years ago or 40 years ago.

Speaker 2: 33:11

The rich will have to do more to embrace sustainability. Developed countries will have to help developing countries, you know, jumpstart their built environment. Again, to unpack this a little bit, developed countries used fossil fuel combustion over the years to develop themselves. So in a way, it's very difficult to be a role model when you've used fossil fuel, emitted all you know all these anthropogenic emissions, and now you're asking developing countries to embrace renewables. So we need to ease the or lower, reduce the anthropogenic emissions. This is at least what we owe the, let's say, the challenge, those who cannot afford systems of that nature.

Speaker 2: 34:03

But I can tell you, Simon, I've met a lot of people who can afford the best EDVAC system, a multistage filtration, and recently I was in a conference and one gentleman said you cannot force me to inhale the best air quality. And I had a quick response on this. I said I cannot. I may be able not to not able to force you to do that, but how about being forced to get a vaccination or to wear a mask, to lock down a city, to take away your job, to make you lose, you know, without your control, a loved one, a mom, a dad, a son or a grandparent. You know this is where I am in for, you know, I think we had the guns, we had got the technology. We have not utilized them. We were in a wrong course of action or inaction. And again, being here today, I hope I get my voice heard so that your podcast, which really sheds light on a lot of this aspect, will do something about it.

Speaker 1: 35:06

Some of what you're saying and I was thinking back to when we were looking and talking about in my mind the certificates to trade, your authority to operate in a city, and I was kind of classing it in two areas One that you would have to validate in some way about emissions that you create.

Speaker 1: 35:37

So if you're in industry or you're a restaurant or you're trying to operate a business or an organization in an urban environment, that there's some kind of emissions target in activities that you produce. That's one side of the equation. And then the other side of the equation is the what am I exposing to people to within my building part, which kind of sits within the occupational hygiene bit. You know, it's the the thing you imagine of inspectors going around and checking that the kitchens are clean and that it's a safe place to operate and the health and safety authorities making sure it's a safe workplace and those kind of elements. So there's there's all sorts of opportunities for enforcement within the urban environment. Isn't there? And I suppose on the emissions side of things, that's where you can have an impact on the people that don't have a choice over filtration and ventilation within their built environment, if you can have an impact on the kind of pollutants that are created in the urban environment. That has a benefit for all ultimately truly.

Speaker 2: 36:46

I think also one way we can uh, get a uh or make a global difference is to integrate technologies. You know, right now, if I were to, let's say, render your indoor space fit to occupy, I'm going to need some sort of an edge vac system. I need a filtration system. Maybe you know, within the system itself or not we're going to be talking about that challenge that air filters are always part of an HVAC system, being allocated a very small or thin spaces, you know where you can achieve very low efficiency. But if we can get a system that can deal with the heat load, deal with the air quality and have the sensors required, so that I'm getting the entire thing, I'm getting the thermal comfort, the air quality required, as well as a system that will respond. You know we don't want systems that just on and off or on with multiple speeds.

Speaker 2: 37:49

The beauty is having a system that would respond to the variations in indoor equality and human occupancy. Now I think there's a great business model here for industries to embrace, by helping those developing countries to at least start with schools. Let them have the best health care, you know. Let me start with, you know, the well-being and the health of nations. And then maybe at that point I can say we got that model, let's now go to real estate and get the housing part fixed.

Speaker 2: 38:29

But I think we have the opportunity now to include people with, I would say, lower socioeconomic status, because we can make it affordable. Now that we've made it accessible, you know before, it's only for those who can afford it, and even of those people who can afford it, they don't see the value. Let me also take it to another two points. There is the value of people, how much value you put on people and how much value you put on their well-being and health. And then what is the quality of the government that would look at such decisions to be made? Look at countries who were developing and then they made quite a bit of progress. You know you need to invest in your people. They're, you know, the core ingredient in any prosperity.

Speaker 1: 39:26

I mean, maybe to kind of round this picture off of of this, this kind of urban development piece, I think it'd be good, as a kind of a a projection piece, to ask you the question if iad was mayor of the city, what would your first five years in power look like from this perspective? What are the kind of things that I would expect to see in an urban environment where I give you the controls to the city yet and, uh, the budgets to start doing this stuff? What, what are the first kind of five actions that are coming out of the, the mayor's city office for this, this new way of thinking about air quality?

Speaker 2: 40:20

excellent question, a million dollar question. I would actually start first morning in the office. I would do, uh, the following first, I would investigate the sectors polluting our environment. For example, if you look at industry, 24%. Transport around 16%. Buildings 17% You're looking at already 57%. Investigate how we lower emissions on these three segments. Then you double-click on each one of them and look at how we can go with efficient processes.

Speaker 2: 40:56

Bring the academic institutions allocate funds for air quality. Have an air quality, let's say, officer, like you. Have a facility director, air quality officer in every building so that he or she are held responsible. Provide them the education and equip them with the tools and conditions to serve. This is what I would do on that level. On the government level, we should have even educate government officials, because they may not have the technical information to legislate, so they can work with universities that do. Also, we need to look at transport. We're polluting so much, simon, and then what we do is we pollute horrendously and then we filter tremendously, thinking that, okay, filtration is a low-hanging fruit, so what? If I pollute, I can just always buy a filter and do it. Again, we spoke about people not being able to afford it. So these sorts of things I would like to see in the first hundred days.

Speaker 2: 42:05

If I'm a mayor and then get people to realize you do it, you'll be rewarded. If you don't have the money, we'll fund you. You meet and exceed. I can give you tax credits, rebates, incentives. If you don't do it, we still continue to help. But if you think that you can run a school, overpopulate that school, overpopulate the classrooms, subject our kids to poor air quality and you can get away with it as a mayor, this is not happening. So there'll be a lot of things that will be taking place, but I won't leave office until I make sure air quality is a pillar. I'm going to hold you responsible. You're going to have to deliver this. Otherwise, to hold you responsible, you're going to have to deliver this, otherwise, this place is not fit to occupy, be it schools, shopping malls, healthcare clinics, offices, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 43:02

We need to get it done and this is what I would do in the first at least 100 days and over a span of five years. I want to make it a global priority. My dream is to have a pandemic-proof built environment. I reject the notion of oh, we're going to be ready for the next pandemic. The next pandemic is going to happen. We're going to do this. No, no, no. We shouldn't be having the next pandemic, because I don't want to be locked down, I don't want to lose my job, I don't want to lose a son or an uncle or a parent. You know, this is serious, simon, and we need to get the job done that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 43:40

Well, I, when I often ask these questions, often the answer is well, I'd live in your city. Yeah, although, uh, it does make me slightly concerned when, uh when, you said I won't leave office until this is done. So he had the dictator, the air quality dictator.

Speaker 2: 43:57

Let me tell you a quick story, simon, the reason why I said this. I've been so touched over the years. Recently, last year, I've been in a hospital. I got a call and I flew to that hospital it was outside where I'm stationed and then a sad face on everybody. I met and then I, you know a sad face on everybody's, you know everybody. I met and I said what's going on and they said a one day old born newborn has just passed away and they suspected that you know, this happened because of air quality.

Speaker 2: 44:29

We did some testing, I got sick myself. So I put myself as a parent. You know what is this worth to me, what is this worth to the mom? So it's not only emotional, it's ethical. I want to address the legislative part, but I also want to tell people appealing to your personal experiences cannot be the way to go, because you know you should care about it, whether it's your son or your daughter or other people's daughters or kids. So this is why and I apologize if you know I get so excited about it, but I feel so strongly about it. I've spent 50% of my life in this. I would love to see it done no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 45:37

Key pillars of your reign as city mayor, um, that I quite liked. I mean, there's the obvious one, obviously, which is investigate polluters. You know that that isn't done robustly enough, that there's low-hanging fruit and people that can be held accountable for polluting when they shouldn't. So I, I think you know that that is something that we could see done more everywhere. Um, of course I I think there's some common sense to allocating funds particularly to academic research and and tying into outcomes within the built environment, and I think that's laudable as well.

Speaker 1: 46:17

One of the things that jumped out to me, though, which I thought was really interesting, was that defining people responsible for air quality outcomes in the built environment, and I thought that was a lovely idea, and it was something that I posted there a few weeks back, where I thought you know every building that has people in it, of course, it's got a fire officer, for example, whose job it is is to check once a week that stairways are clear, that people can go to their allotted space in the car park within 10 minutes, that everybody knows what the fire drill is, that there's somebody that everybody knows they can go to if there's a risk, that fire doors aren't closing or that something's out of date.

Speaker 1: 46:59

You know we've we've had that person in our built environment in many forms for years, so I wonder if there's a nugget of an idea in there that every building should have an air quality officer. You know somebody who's responsible for making sure the servicing has been done this year on the HVAC system, that everybody does know how to complain or raise an issue if they think there's poor air quality in an office or in a particular classroom, that people understand about pollutants and the kinds of sources within their workplace that could be causing problems. You know, I think that's a lovely idea and it'd be lovely to see that being teased out with some of the more forward thinking organisations that we see in the urban settings. That hanging next to the red visible vest where the fire officers one is, is there's a I don't know a blue one for the air quality officers.

Speaker 2: 47:59

You know I think that's a really nice idea, I like that I love it.

Speaker 2: 48:05

Uh, simon, let me tell you this um, the achievement of attaining the best air quality possible in the building is a feeling that you know I've been getting lately, and it's just you know. Let me tell you two examples. I've done One. I was called by an IVF doctor and he said I want you to examine my indoor air quality within the laps and the operating theater and everything. Examine my indoor air quality within the labs and the operating theater and everything. And I said well, I don't know as much as you do about the impact of formaldehyde on sperm or the impact of VOCs in general on an egg or the birth defects, but I researched it a little bit and I can tell you I wouldn't want to be exposed to poor air quality if I plan, with my wife, to conceive a baby. And then he said oh, would you be available for a keynote in my conference? So I did a keynote and we had people from different countries. I gave the keynote and I said these are the pollutants, these are some of the impacts. You are the experts you probably know.

Speaker 2: 49:17

And then I was approached by three doctors overseas doctors that said you know, I have some people, they've tried everything, but I never thought air quality could be an issue. So the other story I want to tell you is I got called for a call center where I was doing air quality monitoring and they called me. They said this is the kind of pollutants we're looking for. And then we found out that, oh, you're not interested in radon. They said no, no, no, but radon is so high. Oh, so we didn't know it's so high. How did I find out? Because I had the capability to measure it. So you know it's a question for the public. You know, have we ever considered poor air quality and its impact on fertility?

Speaker 2: 50:09

I mean, if I go to a call center or an office that has high VOCs, high particulates, and check whether or not people are able to conceive or they have difficulties not just in breathing, you know we focus just on respiratory system, but you know we kind of overlook the other parts of our health. The other parts of our health, you know, would it be good to have a baby with a birth defect? Would it be good not to be able to conceive? You know people will challenge me and say what is the research that supports that? It's becoming more available and now air quality is very, very important. One of the doctors he had, or he still has, the clinic in England. He said I tried everything. There are some couples I'm going to go back to my clinic in England and say subject yourself to the best indoor air quality for six months, then come and try. You know why, simon, they're concerned? Because there is another element, which is the reputation of the doctor himself or herself. You know, the success rate of IVF becomes an important part. So I believe, and we know, we can do it. It's just how to get people to. You know, gather around the same table and do it. I think the air quality officer is a very good start.

Speaker 2: 51:37

When my final point on this is when you propose it to you know, buildings, they say no, no, no, it's under heating, ventilation, air conditioning, you know. And then there's a little bit of an ego, you know. Are you saying we don't know what air quality is? Guys? You know it's a different thing, because you need the sensor and you need an infrastructure of sensors to be able not only to detect. Getting the information is fine If I tell you, simon, you're okay with PM 2.5, but your VOCs are high, okay. So how are you going to intervene now. You need that system to be connected to a smart edge work system. Everything is integrated so we can respond to this variation yeah, no, very true.

Speaker 1: 52:24

And, um, one of the other tenants of your, your reign in charge of the city, which also like, was that education of officials element. I think that's a really interesting idea to tease out, because developing this common language around air quality and health outcomes and the impacts of ventilation on the built environment, all of these things are not just not known. You know we're very used to the language because we spend all day thinking about it and talking about it. You know I spent two hours on podcast talking about it. So you know we're very used to the language because we spend all day thinking about it and talking about it. You know I spend two hours on podcasts talking about it. So you know there's a, there's languages uh, there's a language there. That that's in my mind. But you go outside of our bubble of air quality and sometimes you talk to people and you might as well be from the moon, really, when you're talking about air quality. So there's that.

Speaker 1: 53:16

I I think there's that developing a, developing a common language, particularly within the public sector, officialdom, where they understand the importance of this, when, when this is being raised by councillors and public officials and workers, that they're not hitting a brick wall in the various different departments because it's so interdisciplinary.

Speaker 1: 53:41

Air quality and ventilation, it's an education thing, it's a health thing, it's a built environment thing, it's a health and safety thing.

Speaker 1: 53:49

It impacts all parts of our built environment and people are just hitting walls and glass ceilings everywhere they go because people just don't understand the importance of this subject matter. So I really liked that idea that that I wonder if you start there, rather than a public information campaign that it's targeted in the same way we've done sustained. You know public officials know they have to take the lead on sustainability within their built environment. They're going to be looked at first when it comes to decarbonization of their, of their stock and I wonder if the same pressure can be applied from an air quality perspective that they recognize those people that are responsible for the schools and the libraries and the facilities and the centers and the museums and all of these places that people occupy. They have a responsibility to understand this subject matter and start moving those buildings in the right direction. I think that would be a really interesting idea to tease out and understand. To tease out and understand.

Speaker 2: 54:53

Speaking of training, simon, what we also could do is the fact that we provide training and retraining for maintenance crew. You know all these technicians that you know we subject them to. You know, replacement of filters, cleaning coils, maintaining our edge wax system. You know what kind of training are we providing them with. You know, is it just what tools and conditions? You know what incentives. Are they protected or are they just given a screwdriver and safety shoes? And you know they're the one facing the contamination? Another question is how many times would a facility director go up to his HVAC system and, you know, have a surprise visit to see what kind of maintenance is done? I think, also on that level, maintenance crew are boots on the ground. They are not currently included, or they're not included enough, in the success equation of air quality Training and retraining. The reason why is air retraining? Because technologies are improving. You know it's evolving.

Speaker 2: 55:59

What you could do in terms of filtration and air quality 10 years ago is different. I've spoken to a lot of maintenance or technicians and I will share with you something that one of them said to me. He said I'm exposed to the toughest environment in terms of air quality. I'm inhaling a lot of dust and other pollutants, probably wide array of microorganisms, but there is no penalty for exposing the occupants to poor air quality and there is no reward if we improve it. So what is the incentive for us? I mean, if I go every day and do my job and get the job done, would that make me part of the success equation?

Speaker 2: 56:51

And I wrote an article about this, I gave a lecture about this. I said we have to include. They're overlooked, we need to make them happen or include them in the equation. But also one other thing that's missing is the certification. Not just because you know a little bit about filtration and edge vac system, you got a screwdriver in hand and a measuring tape. That kind of qualifies you. So the other part, since we're speaking on training, I think this is very important to certify training, provide certified trainings to technicians. I have a program now. It's going to run with the Eurovent Middle East in September. This is three levels where people can come and apply for indoor air quality specialists, experts and so on. They get into the levels. You provide very quick two-day training but you equip people. This same thing can be shared on a higher level and a wider scope with the government officials shared on a higher level and a wider scope with the government officials.

Speaker 1: 57:55

There's two really interesting points you raised there, particularly at the practitioner level. One of them is around the value of engineers in the built environment. I mean, it's a global shortage of engineers at the moment in the built environment and it's a problem everybody is having with gaining access to competency. Um, quantity and competency is just a a terrible formula for poor outcomes generally speaking. But also we don't value those engineers highly enough. Um nathan, a previous guest on the podcast, who runs a HVAC business in the UK, was making the very valid point to me that an engineer who fixes ventilation in a building is somebody who's hidden, who has to come after hours when it's dark. It's not valued as an engineer within that space. Yet if you're a fire engineer and you're doing tests of smoke alarms, people are glad to see you there because you're doing something that's critical to the safety of the building. But you don't see somebody walking around in the middle of an office in the middle of the day measuring ventilation, giving fresh air and health and well-being to the people in that environment and valued in the same way. So I think there's a repositioning of how we value those practitioners in the space. I think would help enormously and signpost for people careers that they could be proud of, rather than the grease monkey, the nuts and bolts man that turns up in the dark and is fixing belts and drives and getting dirty. It's an engineering job.

Speaker 1: 59:43

The other part of that equation which you touched on which I think is interesting is ventilation and air quality isn't really a trade yet.

Speaker 1: 59:58

Quality isn't really a trade yet. You know, we find in parts of the world where heating, ventilation and air conditioning are very strong, yes, in the non-domestic sector, but most of the skills in that sector are leaning towards the conditioning, the refrigeration expertise of people and perhaps some filtration, but there's very little expertise in air quality outcomes and air movement and creating zones of health and well-being and all of the stuff that drives the good outcomes. So I think that's another really valid point. It is how we raise the value of those people so they're proud to do what they do and we attract more people like that in. But also we equip them, like you're doing interestingly in with your event with the skills that they need to be able to talk with confidence on this matter, that they're not just going out to check the refrigerant and cleaner condensate grill down and condensate tray that there's something more valuable that they do for people in that space. I think that's a really nice idea.

Speaker 2: 1:01:03

I want to touch a little bit on this and going back to the question that I love, which is being a mayor. You know I also discussed with Eurovent Middle East the fact that we can have star rating. So if you pass the first level, you know your uh first star like, uh, you know Lieutenant and air quality, and if you pass the second one, you get the next star and then you become a captain. But you know, if you're a hospital, you would say I would require at least a minimum of a first Lieutenant, two stars, to be able to, you know, have access and maintain and be accepted here. So there is a lot of you know stuff that needs to be in sync here. But training is really really a core undertaking in this equation.

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

You know, I gave a recent lecture, you know, and I had one slide, because every time air quality comes up everybody says it's too expensive, I can't pay so much. I mean, this is how much I would pay to get an air conditioning unit. So that's a quick calculation on the number of coffees you would have per day multiplied by 365 days per year. 365 days per year. You know we did a quick calculation with the audience about this, hard-to-reach destinations so that you can post the picture on Facebook and show off, or the extra car in the garage, or, you know, duty-free purchases or upgrading when traveling. You know, really, if you save on two cups of coffees per day, this is how much it would cost you to upgrade and maintain good air quality in your residence, because these systems, they don't have extensive filtration, which is also another issue.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

But I reject the notion that improving indoor air quality is expensive. It's not. What is more expensive and relevant is that getting sick, being in bed, not being productive, and then the company will suffer. If you're a surgeon, you're not there, it's an excessive loss. Or you're not a teacher, your school kids will miss you. I think we need to have a different perspective on air quality. You know not, I don't have to split the difference as air quality with other endeavors. You know, don't tell me okay, if I improve the air quality from x to y or go down from y to x, would that be acceptable? Because I need the money to have more coil washing or I need to clean or I need to do something else. Air quality budgets shouldn't be touched and they should not split the difference with any other maintenance or facility management issue.

Speaker 1: 1:03:49

You've got a fascinating history in this sector. You've been at this, it sounds like, for quite a long time now. What first got you interested in air quality in the built environment and perhaps tell that story, but also what you found yourself doing now, because it's led ultimately to you being very prominent within particularly the filtration sector, but starting to look then academically at things like ventilation and urban planning. So it's an interesting journey, I suspect, particularly because you've been looking at this quite early on.

Speaker 2: 1:04:29

Well, I'll take you back to the end of 90s where I was first exposed to air filtration. As a sales engineer, I wanted to sell more filters and make more money, but then I realized that there are some science behind filtration. I developed a lot of questions. I was so scared to meet the first consultant because I thought he's going to ask me questions that I wouldn't be able to answer. I decided to undertake my master's in air filtration technologies and by the end of my master's I started to publish articles in the newspapers and in the ASHRAE journals.

Speaker 2: 1:05:15

In around 2003, I decided to join the first conference Infiltration and try to gauge my knowledge and see what's next for me. There I met Professor Richard Wakeman who was giving a short course Infiltration and then I asked him for 10 minutes. I said would you be able to look at my work? I just finished my master's, I don't want to stop, so I don't know what self-development we can do. And he said okay, you got five minutes. So I gave him an overview and we spent about an hour discussing this. I was so scared because I've gone over the time limitation. And then he said you're coming to Loughborough in the UK to do your PhD. I said, professor Wakeman, I'm not actually planning to do my PhD. He said it's not your choice anymore, you have to come. So I went, so excited my life changed, only to realize that Professor Richard Wakeman is the co-author of the Filtration Dictionary. I learned so much from him.

Speaker 2: 1:06:13

I've started to publish more articles, beginning of 2009 until today, and then, after graduation, I realized why are we polluting so much? Where is this coming from? So the first suspect, the villain in the story, was power generation. So I went to Cranfield and I've undertaken a lot of courses, tried to understand gas turbine technologies and I was asked to be a visiting fellow, which I'm very proud to be until today and I tried to understand the air quality for land-based gas turbine, because fossil fuel combustion is certainly a parameter. And then you know the final destination, which is Oxford. I wanted to make my voice heard that urban planning should embed air quality from day one, and today I think or this year I will probably celebrate 27 years in this field.

Speaker 2: 1:07:19

I regard myself as an underachiever. I get a little bit nervous when people call me an expert. There's so much to learn. There's a lot of research ideas I have. It has not been implemented. I would love to connect with universities to undertake this. But this is, simon. This is how I ended up here talking to you today, which is a privilege, but I you know it was a journey because throughout the way, a lot of people said air quality early 2000,. It's not attractive enough. You should focus only also on energy efficiency, should focus also on energy efficiency. Maybe you should include the built environment or heating, ventilation, air conditioning system. So you know, eventually, when the pandemic unfortunately invaded our cities, my phone started to ring and life was different. I hope we can make a difference. I appreciate your podcast because it sheds light on different aspects of things, but, quite simply, this is my journey.

Speaker 1: 1:08:30

All the way back to starting at a master's in air filtration technologies. Where did you do that? Where was that?

Speaker 2: 1:08:38

It was in Kuwait University, but it was under the mechanical engineering. So really, my master thesis was about air filtration, but the remaining courses were just about fluid mechanics and quantum mechanics, so they were not really targeted towards filtration, and this is what we need to fix. Simon, today I'm more than happy to put together I've put together already a lot of courses. I've put together courses for your event. They're going to be launched in September. I work with WFI, another institute you know, where we do short courses in filtration.

Speaker 2: 1:09:16

But air filtration and air quality and the associated technologies around them, they should be a subject in universities, they should be taught. You know they're not a second thought and they're not some sort of an accessory to the built environment. You know, there is so much science in there and I'll be more than happy to be part of that teaching. But there are global experts, different countries, that can do that. I'm sure you've contacted a lot of them and interviewed a lot of them. So we don't have the challenge that we've had 40 years ago, that maybe the people who are in the field are not, um, you know and you know like they're few. But today we we have them and I think the universities will have to. You know, come and say look, I want air quality to be a subject. Have you ever heard of a degree in air filtration or air quality? You know?

Speaker 1: 1:10:09

yeah, but that's what I find surprising that within engineering courses around the built environment, filtration isn't seen as a discipline in of its own right. You'd almost think that people think it's just a bunch of foam and felt. You chuck in fans and hope that it catches some stuff. One assumes that there's a little bit more science to it than that, but I find that an interesting gap, um, especially considering you know there are so many standards being built around filtration iso standards in en standards and you know american versions of that, whatever they are. Um, you know the it's clearly a a key pillar to a lot of the built environment, and particularly in parts of the world where it has such a significant impact in the difference between outdoor and indoor air, and then within sectors, pharmaceutical and engineering and computer science, all of these things filters are critical elements of outcomes.

Speaker 1: 1:11:22

Um, yet somehow it doesn't factor. Uh, where does that knowledge? Where's that knowledge got from for protect, for practitioners in the space, in the absence of it being in education? Is it just learn or does it come from organizations like you just mentioned, wfi, that's, the Waterloo Filtration Institute? Is that right?

Speaker 2: 1:11:48

Yes, Well, you know, as you said, it's not really a sort of science where you can go to a single university. I know Loughborough does a lot of filtration research and there is a strong and solid program there. But when we look at air filtration itself, I'm not talking about research degrees. You may be able to find research degrees, whether a master's degree or a PhD. What I'm talking about is actually sitting in the classroom and say, simon, today we're going to address the theory of a single fiber efficiency. Tomorrow we're going to be looking at the impact of adjacent fibers on efficiency and pressure drop.

Speaker 2: 1:12:33

You know, when I built my filtration library and that was one of the things Professor Wakeman told me to do, I had to, you know, contact libraries. You know it's very, very difficult to get books. You know, today we have, you know, I would say, the availability of books more than 30 years ago or more than 25 or 27 years ago when I just started. So I think we need to get that as a subject embedded. We need to get that as a subject embedded. You know, ambitious to say. I'd like to embed it maybe in some sort of a mechanical or chemical engineering or even, you know, biology programs in the university, you know, and then if you want to specialize, you go to a master's degree and get air quality and then go and specialize. You know we talked about everything else, but we haven't talked about air quality and filter performance in land-based gas turbine, because if that also is not done properly, we won't be able to generate power with, or responsibly combust, fossil fuel. So the air quality itself, I know, in the built environment it's now an important issue. But also filtration plays a role in many applications, you know, and part of filtration is air quality. We need to get that documented.

Speaker 2: 1:13:55

You know, I met a magazine the other time and they said we would like to take all your publications in terms of articles and do it in a book. So I said that's an interesting idea. I've had it for a long time but you know it was never implemented. You know, I think one of the reasons why I do these articles is I try to give you, you know, a thousand words very quickly so that you can read and get an insight. So hopefully one day, you know, it will make an impact, and I'm happy to report to you that I get emails from Portugal, from Europe, from North America, using my articles as an appendix to support their proposal and so on. So I think you know, I appreciate the fact that you brought that point.

Speaker 2: 1:14:46

Yes, we need to get it as an academic subject, a subject that not only I give it to you as a short course in a day or two or a week, because that's easy, but you know there are laps that can be done. I've given a course to a ministry, one of the ministries in the Middle East for housing and you know residential affairs, and my last day it was a five-day course. My last day was how to select filters, appropriately select filters, how to look at filter media, and then we had all the instruments to measure indoor air quality. We brought, you know, cleaning sprays and I start to show them how you know we can pollute the air without even knowing. Or even you spray a perfume that is rich in formaldehyde and then you don't know that this is impacting your health.

Speaker 2: 1:15:39

Then I came back to my office and I received an email. The last day was the best because it got practical implications after we've had four days of academic talk. But you know, just imagine if I go today in a conference and start addressing, you know, the fluid flow over filter fiber or the impact of X filter media if the porosity is X with a permeability Y with the you know, at a specific flow rate. This is why and allow me to say this it's very difficult for me to believe the standards that we have now will pass the exam, because filtration is not really studied or researched well enough to yield a standard that is strong enough to accommodate what we're up against.

Speaker 1: 1:16:38

Yeah, and perhaps if we'd have had a better language and a better substantive knowledge in the sector around filtration, we wouldn't have ended up in the mess we ended up with with filters trying to sort out the pandemic.

Speaker 1: 1:16:55

There was a lot of running around with our hair on fire buying all sorts of inappropriate filters and media trying to solve problems we didn't really understand. Um, so you know, it goes to show that when you have a big gap like that, that you can end up with some unintended consequences, and there's many buildings and classrooms and offices with products sat in them not doing what they're supposed to, uh, or not lasting as long as they thought they were going to last, or behaving differently to how they thought they were going to behave, and any other variation of that, I suppose. Um, because covid was a really interesting time, wasn't it? I don't. I imagine there's probably not a filter company on the planet that hasn't seen a boom in filter production in the last five years, but I wonder if we've come out the other side of that having learned much more than we did you know, you just inspired me to say something a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:17:56

Uh, you know, on the harsh side, I think we regarded the pandemic I don't want to say all of us, but you know most us especially from the industry point of view as a business opportunity but not an opportunity to reposition ourselves, align and realign ourselves to be pandemic proof. Three to four years to get out of the pandemic. Frankly, simon, I think the only way we got out of the pandemic when all of us got infected, because when the virus, you know, infected, all of us probably told itself look, I finished everybody else, I finished all the 8 billion. I'm leaving now, so you know, to sit back and, just, you know, be vulnerable to virus transmission, be vulnerable to virus transmission, thinking that masks and curfews and vaccinations will, you know, render you protected. That's not going to happen. I also wanted to touch a little bit on the fact that even if you want to upgrade filtration, you know we have several issues. We have very limited spaces when it comes to fan call units and a residential application, or maybe in an office, when you look at air handling units, offices, shopping malls, schools, you only have two, maybe three stages of filtration for particle capture. So what are you trying to tell me? Are you somehow trying to tell me that my responsibility to you is just protect you from particulates at a low efficiency? How about gaseous pollutants? How about, you know, bioaerosols? Now, this was brought in the picture after, during and after the pandemic. Now not so much. We almost kind of went back to pre-COVID mindsets, with indoor air quality and the consequential filter selection in terms of formulation stages, efficiencies, that you can have a sustainable performance. Many people say, oh, when the pandemic comes in, next time I'm just going to replace filters more frequently. And I say no, what we look for is sustainable filter performance. This is the science of filtration. We want particles and pollutants to settle around the pore of the filter media, not just to replace every three months.

Speaker 2: 1:20:37

In the circular economy, everybody focuses on reuse, recycle, possibly repurpose. What we overlook is extending the use of air filters. When my filter is selected appropriately, with appropriate pre-filtration, with the understanding that I have physical and chemical characterization of what's outdoors and indoors, how much fresh air I'm bringing or outdoor air I'm bringing in, then I'm able to estimate and lay out the infiltration stages when the filters left for two years big difference than when they live in for a few months. You know, and you know that's part of being circular, you know, but just the focus that, oh, when they get disposed, I have to find something to repurpose the filters, the loaded filters. The other thing on filtration is we haven't really fully resolved the issue of the disposal of loaded filters.

Speaker 2: 1:21:42

What do you do with all these HEPA filters and ULPA filters that are full of microorganisms? What if they're toxic? What if they have radioactive contaminants? What do you do with that? You know who should dispose that. What are the procedures? You know. Should I pay more to the technician or the practitioner that does that because he's exposing his life to this or her life? There are so many questions. So filtration is not only overlooked on the onset, but it's also overlooked in the end. I've visited a lot of hospitals and other commercial places and I see old filters laying in the floor or in the basement or in the staircase waiting for somebody to pick them up. So I think the issue of disposal needs to be looked at from a landfill point of view recycling, possibly repurposing, extending the use, but, most importantly, look at filter media that can be regenerated while maintaining the efficiency.

Speaker 1: 1:22:44

Yeah, there's a couple of interesting things. I wanted to pick up on what you just said there, yad. One of them was just really an observation and that was I think we could probably argue for time immemorial how much of an impact the airborne nature of this past pandemic was, and we've got no way of telling what impact the next one will be from an airborne perspective. But, like a lot of risks, it's about the knowns and unknowns, being able to control what you can control, and I think one of the challenges we had this time round was that we didn't really have any idea on the performance of our built environment. That was one of the biggest challenges and if we can do anything moving into the next pandemic is to be as sure as we can be that we know the performance of the spaces that we occupy so that we can quantify that risk more. It may well be that the next pandemic is a contact virus more than it is an airborne virus, but at least we'll understand what contribution our built environment is likely to have to that risk. And I think that was the big challenge this particular time round is that there's such a spectrum of performance within the spaces that we occupied. It made it very difficult to understand what risk that carried um.

Speaker 1: 1:24:19

One of the questions I wanted to ask you was around this idea that we've seen with ASHRAE 241 about equivalent air change rates, this concept that the air change that we're looking for in the built environment can, in whole or in part, be contributed to by things like filtration of the space rather than outside air for air renewal purposes, and whether you think we're really ready for a term like that, because I'm I'm guessing from what you're saying you think there's quite a big gap in our knowledge of filtration and its potential and risks and so on. Do you think we're ready for equivalent air change rates in the built environment and if we're not, where are those gaps? Again, he had as chair of ASHRAE. What do you look at next? You know, from a filtration perspective, if we really want 241 and equivalent air change rates to have an impact, where does the effort need to go when it comes to knowledge around filtration and the development of standards or technologies?

Speaker 2: 1:25:39

I'm going to ask the question from a filtration perspective because I think it's a very critical question. I think I would like to see you know looking at filtration performance and air changes per hour relative to human occupancy one human occupancy, while characterizing or defining the proximity of occupants. For example, if I'm sitting in an office where there is, like you know, four meter social distance between me and the next person, or I'm in school where you know my son is, you know, sitting next to someone else, how would the standard adhere with all of this? Also, what is missing for me to be able to say something meaningful and I don't want to pass judgment is that what is the EDGE-WAC system like? What are the air changes per hour, given that I have 10 students in the classroom? What happens if you have a filter and the filters start to, you know, increase in terms of pressure drop and then you start losing flow rate? You know there are too many missing, I would say, parameters, and you know possibly also some boundary conditions to be able to accurately address the point. But what is really important is we need to look at ventilation and filtration as a holistic sort of system. We need to integrate their performance and I think one of the things that's really overlooked in the filtration field and in the air quality field for the built environment is the innovations in media.

Speaker 2: 1:27:27

Filter media is the bedrock of any filter, you know. I mean you can get an, let's say, e10 or MERV, I don't know, 16, whatever you like, based on which standard you want to use in Europe or the US, but nobody asks in Europe or the US, but nobody asks at what expense of pressure drop. Yes, I can get this class, fine, how much is it? A hundred bucks, here's a hundred bucks. But what we should be asking is what is the pressure drop? You know at what pressure drop I'm getting this and what is the flow rate. You know if you're going to do it and it's going to cost me 250, Pascal, thanks so much, but this is not what I'm looking for. I think the industry and the success in general has not really recognized filter media manufacturers who spend a tremendous amount of money researching and developing filter media. That is so innovative that they are permeable to the air but not permeable to the pollutants. So I think once we bring that in, I may be able to, you know, bring in more air changes per hour through a filter without having to, you know, buy a bigger fan or upgrade the system.

Speaker 2: 1:28:44

I want to share with you a story I remember 26 years ago, first consultant I met. He said I want to go from 95% efficiency for a one micron to maybe HEPA filter H13. And I said how are you going to do that? He said I'm just going to buy a bigger fan. And I said how are you going to do that? He said I'm just going to buy a bigger fan. And I wondered because, if you do that, how about filter media deformation? How would the plate sustain all that? Where is the? How about the flow dynamics and the forces you can apply to? And he said no, no, no, no, no, don't worry about it. When you have high pressure drop, you need to get a fan that is bigger to accommodate that. Of course, we all know that this is not the case. You know these filters operate at a very low concentration of dust or particles or pollutants and actually very low velocities, because otherwise, you know, the resistance will become so high relative to the efficiency that they're going to give you One final point on this, simon.

Speaker 2: 1:29:49

We have not correlated efficiency and pressure drop. I mean, if I can give you 90% efficiency of one micron at 20 Pascal, compared to 120 Pascal 20 years ago, that's an innovation Because right now my systems don't have to be so big, I don't have to use a lot of power to operate this. So I think filter media innovations will need to come to the spotlight and be rewarded, recognized and highlighted in terms of role, because they have a key role. They are the bedrock of filter performance. And finally, filter design. Filter design has been so conventional. You know it gets me so tired. You know I'd like to see some innovation how the filter looks like, but it's so conventional. You know I want to see some innovations there. Uh, the media, the design, uh, I think it. It would cost us a lot of pressure drop 20 years ago when you attain a specific or a given efficiency, given what we have today where do you think the innovation is going to come from with filters?

Speaker 1: 1:31:04

because, I mean, the lazy perspective would be to say you know how many different designs of pleats can you have, or you know, you know the media or material that's being used is there. Is there really that much innovation that can be found there, or is it at a law of diminishing returns at this point? Are we, are we optimizing at a point where it's not worth that innovation, or do you think there's still some pretty big steps that can be gained within that sector?

Speaker 2: 1:31:36

excellent question. Before I answer the question, I'd like to say the following for me to innovate let's say I'm leading a design group I'm going to file for divorce from the edge wax system. I do not want to be part or I cannot propel the cause of air quality when I'm part of an edge wax system like an air handling unit, because I'm usually, as a filtration system, allocated very limited space and depth. So what I would like to be is filtration should be a system to be able to innovate and have a sustainable filter performance. You know it's like a module system. You know I attach it to the edge rack system. This way, edge rack manufacturers they don't have to inherit that agony of selling a system with filters and at the same time we give the responsibilities back to filter manufacturers to have a system and you can attach it to the EDGEVAC system or, for example, air handling unit. Once we do that, we can manipulate the velocities to achieve higher efficiency at a much lower energy use. Before we do that, my only answer would be okay, I need aerodynamic filter design, an innovative low-pressure drop filter medium. But if we go that this is why we've got to think out of the box we can't do more of the same and expect the change in the game. If we do that, then we have an innovative idea and I like that expression.

Speaker 2: 1:33:21

Let's file for a divorce. We are separate, maybe physically. We get connected eventually but we are integrated in performance. So this way you know you're buying the tire from a tire company for your fast car and not just simply that you leave the decision for the car salesman to make that decision with you. And you know, usually when you buy a car we never ask, oh, what kind of tire do you have? But we need to ask now I'm going to have a system, I need that sort of air quality.

Speaker 2: 1:33:56

If I don't have the experience, you know, I render the services of certified air filtration or air quality expert. He or she will be able to help you do that. So I think this is going to be a practice. That again, you know I get a call sometimes saying what is the business model in this? You know, to me it's not the primary concern. My primary concern is we need to capitalize on the technologies we have. We can always find a business model that will capitalize on this. That's not my job. My job is how do we capitalize on the technologies to best serve humanity.

Speaker 1: 1:34:36

And I suppose when you free yourself from some of the standardized thinking around filters, we start to cross the boundaries of things like phase-changing materials, clever material use. You start to redefine what a filter really is.

Speaker 2: 1:34:55

Well, you know filtration, you know defined as the separation and retention of particles on or within the porous medium. Now I want to add my two cents on that definition throughout the lifetime of the filter. Because if you capture a particle and then you know something happens, your air handling unit vibrates strong enough to give enough energy for that particle to overcome the obstruction, ie the fiber, and goes back to the airstream. This specific particle has not been filtered, so you know having porous medium to do so. You know, first thing I would be looking at is porosity and permeability. You know the performance of filters lies there, because when we look at Darcy's law, it's inversely proportional to pressure drop. But we also need to look at the performance of a pleated cartridge, not just a flat medium, but after we take that medium and pleat it and put it in a cartridge, believe me, simon, things will change. You know, I've spent seven years researching this and I can tell you. You know, when we say this filter has a specific surface area, it's not the total surface area that I should care about, but it's the effective surface area and that's defined, the surface area that will participate in the filtration action. This is why it's very difficult to get or to provide an answer that is clear cut when it comes to integrating filtration, performance and ventilation. You know, because there are so many underlying parameters that will render the answer inaccurate. That will render the answer inaccurate.

Speaker 2: 1:36:42

But once we do that, once we get filtration to be looked at in depth, look at the theory of filtration, look at the design, run a computational fluid, dynamics of the design and look at where is the pressure drop coming from. This is one question we haven't been asking. We ask about the pressure drop but, dynamically speaking, where is that pressure drop coming from? Why don't we investigate that? Why don't we get into research that we can get the efficiency we want at a much lower pressure drop? This is a sustainable practice, this is engineering and this renders the science to be available, to be capitalized by designers and edge wax equipment manufacturers.

Speaker 2: 1:37:39

But I think and don't hold me too responsible for this I think we're so keen on releasing standards more than actually, you know, characterizing. What is it that we're looking at? You know, I mean with air quality. You've got different angles and, as I said, we got to establish the academic front on filtration. We got to establish the academic front on filtration and I'm sure by the time we establish that and we have the first cohort graduating, we will have a completely different outlook on filtration and air quality. And how is that going to serve the purpose collectively?

Speaker 1: 1:38:20

Do you think there's realistically a gap in what we think filters are doing out there and what they're actually doing? Is it the same as the rest of the built environment? You know we were waxing lyrical earlier about the performance gap in ventilation in general in the built environment. But do you think there's a substantive performance gap of filters out there, and is that principally coming from filter efficiency or or fit or combination of everything is? Is it a problem?

Speaker 2: 1:38:52

it is because filters and filtration is regarded as an accessory, not a driving force of air quality. In the built environment, in the building envelope, air filters are looked at. You know boxes that will obstruct and impede your airflow. Of course, when you don't select them appropriately and when you install them, you know, in the wrong manner and leave them there beyond the allowable final pressure drop, of course they're going to impede your flow rate. So I think there's a lack of knowledge and perception. But also, you know, if you're a filtration company and you're leading the r&d department, you know why should you spend all this money on on r&d when there is no appreciation whatsoever? All people want is that efficiency tag on the filter so that they can, you know, get the AC or the HVAC unit running. You know we talk about air quality but when we talk about filtration we have to grant filtration the attention it deserves. It's a science.

Speaker 2: 1:39:56

If we look back in the past hundred years, the theory of filtration was established without, you know, having computers, without microscopes, without any analytical tools. How is it possible that when we possess all these technologies now, it's on the back burner? You know we go back to your mere question. I would go back and say this is what I would invest. You know, if it's not attractive enough to say, oh, I am an air filtration engineer, well, we make it attractive. And this is why the government would need to get involved and say you know, we have 20 scholarships to study this in the universities. Of course, the universities would have to have the programs. Again, I'll be humble and honored to contribute a single centella of contribution or provide any sort of contribution in these courses. But now we know more. We are not doing as much as we should have. I'm very concerned. I'm very optimistic. I know we can get the job done, but I'm very concerned that the next pandemic might come sooner than we may expect and we're not ready by then.

Speaker 1: 1:41:12

One of the other things I before I forget, because it kind of brings it full circle back to the beginning, where we start to say you know, we need to start looking at our at the sustainability of the built environment in conjunction with air quality. Is there a sustainability risk with filter media? What's it typically made of? And are there some advancements to be made in the recycling and repurposing and the consumption of what is a consumable and, as we know, consumables in our modern society is one of our big challenges when it comes to carbon emissions? But notwithstanding that, you know the proliferation of microplastics into the built environment and all sorts of things, are we building up a risk with filters and filter media that we should be aware of? Or are they typically made from glass, fibers and paper, mulch and things like that? Or are there plastics and things involved in filters that we should be aware of? Do you think?

Speaker 2: 1:42:15

Let me address the idea of filters and why wider perspective. I think when we look at filtration in terms of a filter media and a frame, you know, I think the most important part to look at is not to have a byproduct as a result of the media itself and the deposition. You know, when we inappropriately choose filters and we focus merely on particle capture, overlooking the gases that may exist, I have seen some incidents where a loaded filter left, you know, uncontrolled and, you know, without maintenance for a long time, may actually off-gas byproduct. But again, I'm not saying that this is always the case. I'm just saying that, characterizing what you're up against, you need to know what gases and particulates you're up against to be able to say look, you know. You go to a doctor. The doctor says you have all these pollutants ailing you. He gives you a prescription. You go to the pharmacy.

Speaker 2: 1:43:41

If you end up having the wrong or the inappropriate filter selection, you may have issues.

Speaker 2: 1:43:49

But to be fair to the filter media or the filter design or the filter cartridge, this may be due to the fact that the filters were selected inappropriately. You have not notified the filter manufacturer of what all the pollutants that ail in your process. This is why I'm saying we're missing too many links here and this has to be looked at from a certified expert where we'll say OK, we would run a complete blood test here for you and it will tell you exactly what's existing. You cannot call an expert and say I only want to take care of PM1. You know, maybe this is not what's causing the issue and maybe also PM1 is not an issue. And you have to understand what is the process, you know what's ailing your process so that you can do that. So I think I'm sure media manufacturers have gone a long way in understanding the risks and hazards and you know planning for the health and safety for this. But again, if you inappropriately use any filter, you are positioning yourself at a much higher risk.

Speaker 1: 1:45:01

Final point on this what about the composition, then? Are filters? Do they contain microplastics and things that we should be concerned about from what they're made of and how they're being recycled and reused or end of life? Is that something that we're building up a problem with, potentially?

Speaker 2: 1:45:20

I would leave that question to the media manufacturers to ask, because I haven't been really updated since the past year or so, so I would leave that question to the manufacturers to answer.

Speaker 1: 1:45:39

Yeah, fair enough, factors at some point whether they're starting to go down the road of life cycle assessments and EPDs. You know environmental product declarations and so on that this is being mapped out because we know, certainly within the rest of the built environment there are much more grown-up and nuanced decisions being made now that maybe there's a decision to be made that there's an embodied carbon impact of a certain media choice because of how quickly it might degrade the kind of capture efficiency you're looking for. You know there are co-benefits and risks for the choices you make over filtration that extend beyond the the efficiency of the filter. That would be a very interesting topic to understand because it's a topic that most manufacturers within the built environment are having to answer now that it's not just about the efficiency of the thing that you sell. The full life cycle impacts of that product have to be taken into account.

Speaker 1: 1:46:38

Um, so, yeah, look, listeners if you're listening and somebody wants to stick their head above the parapet, uh, to talk about that. That might be an interesting one. Good, good point to you. Um, is there something we should round off? Do you think on filters on this discussion, because I think we presented a case. I think that it's a sector that needs much more focus, that there's enormous locked in potential that's not being realized out of that sector at the moment. There's definitely some innovation potential in there. Um, have we caught everything, do you think, on the discussion of filters, or is there something else we should be talking about generally when it comes to this part of the built environment?

Speaker 2: 1:47:26

I think there are a couple of points I want to highlight. Uh, one is, uh again, inappropriate filtration or filter selection. Um, neglecting the outdoor environment and the outdoor pollutants may lead to premature clogging, which means we have particles settling on the onset of the filter media. We have surface deposition on a depth media. Now, looking at this in the microscope, like I used to do in England when I was doing my PhD, it can bring you to tears because it's almost a 500 micron media and you can only see the first few microns of the surface only. With the particle deposition, almost the inner part of the filter media is, you know, almost, you know particle free. So I think this is important. Premature clogging is very important, especially now we have sandstorm issue and wildfires coming up. I also wanted to highlight that you know this idea of the mindset of shortcuts, whether in maintenance or in filter selection, or how you want to reduce filter efficiency, and you know filter efficiency and you know unblock particle counters or pressure drop gauges so that facility management is not informed. I think while we want to, you know, excite and entice people to do the job, meet and exceed the performance, we also need to make sure that we educate these practitioners and make them understand that doing this is going to, you know, make the building vulnerable to health risks, contaminations that we may not be able to do something about because the detection system is not there. Also, we need to do more on bioaerosols. We haven't done much on bioaerosols. We've you know. We need to. We need to come across a long way.

Speaker 2: 1:49:31

I don't think we're still doing very well on the integration. We're doing something. I'm very proud of it. I'm very optimistic, but I have a kind of saying. I always say what would our world be like if our smart cities had an EDGWAC system that's filtered professionally by a system that can act responsibly and promptly to any variation in indoor air quality and carbon dioxide concentration? So we need that purpose to be served collectively. We need the responsibility to be shared, because right now, if we're having this conversation for hours and then the reception on the government or the users or the designers does not really at least match our interest and passion, I think the cause of air quality is lost there was one point I wanted to make there in something that you said, and that was the importance of filter selection seems to be really key.

Speaker 1: 1:50:44

The question I have in that regard is who should have that knowledge for filter selection, because I'm guessing at the moment that's predominantly locked in with the suppliers and the supply chain, and is that the right place for that knowledge to be retained? Should it be a knowledge that's held within the facility managements and the engineers and the architects and the people making decisions on buildings, because there's always that reservation of knowledge being locked completely within the supply chain? That am I? Am I being oversold products for the sake of it? And that's one of the negative consequences of that is, people are reluctant to upgrade and take the upsell of a better filter because they think they're being sold something that they don't need for filter technology.

Speaker 2: 1:51:43

I want to take you back to the doctor example. You know you should have a family doctor and that's in a building equivalent to the air quality officer. The air quality officer should possess the knowledge, the filtration knowledge, and, if not, a filtration expert certified, hopefully independent will come and say this is what you need. We need that prescription from the doctor to say this is what you need. We need that prescription from the doctor to say this is what I'm going to need, this is the filter that I need to have. Not necessarily that the filter is over the counter. You know, once you have that, you'll be able to generate specs that is fit for the application.

Speaker 1: 1:52:22

And they exist. I mean they exist in consultancy practices in an occupational hyg, and they exist. I mean they exist in consultancy practices in inoccupational hygienist practices. I mean there is the skills out there currently available for people to make a determinant on the type of air quality factors that are important to a particular environment. So that skill set does exist. The trouble is is people often aren't willing to pay for it because they don't see the value in it, and there, perhaps, in lies the challenge, particularly when we look at the hierarchies of control. If you can automate things, it's far better to take an area of innovation that holds huge potential in the built environment and it's. It's very pleasing to see all sorts of organizations taking that chance and looking at demand control ventilation. I'm involved in the international energy agencies annex on smart ventilation and things like that, and you know you can see the potential of having systems that can react to the environment. So I think that was a really interesting point that you raised.

Speaker 2: 1:53:53

A quick comment on this is the fact that when you usually have a building, you have a consultant, either the consultant that designed your building, and maybe his contract is extended until that time. They may or may not possess the filtration knowledge or the air quality knowledge, but sometimes it's very difficult for them to say we don't have the background. I have actually worked with so many consultant offices. They say okay, all we need to render your services is maybe for a week or a month because we don't have that frequency of people asking for a specific air quality indoors. So we can pretend as much as possible that we know what to say, but we don't have the time. We get the service done through you. That's one way to do it. But I am so much in love with the idea of having air quality officer slash filtration officer because this individual will be in a position to generate the specs independently. You know, I know. You know if you get it from maybe a company or two, you know they will be reluctant to develop something for you because the cost over the quantity uh may may not justify. You know the setup cost and the development, and that's true too. But if you have the prescription of the filters and you need to develop this. Then at least you have a a custom-made solution in terms of filtration for your system.

Speaker 2: 1:55:32

What I also wanted to mention is without data, data driven uh decisions, I think, where it's just a dicey practice. When I go to any client, especially if they're new, I ask them I need a one full year data of your air quality. And the question is we don't have any monitoring system. I said, perfect, let's get one start to develop. But within one year, we'll be able to detect almost almost all the issues. You know, sometimes they have sandstorms, they got an issue indoors when it rains. You know almost all the issues. You know, sometimes, when they have sandstorms, they got an issue indoors when it rains. You know they had the moisture issue. So without data, you know, I think it's just all guessing games.

Speaker 2: 1:56:14

I'm going to try this and that you know I've done projects where I had to work with filter media manufacturers and tell them these are the pollutants and these are the concentration. Please develop a solution. If you don't have the medication in terms of filtration, please develop it. And they always get concerned. Oh, but it may cost. I said we're here to find a solution. You know, let's find the solution and then, you know, you can, we can discuss the the cost. But if I'm in a hospital and I have, you know, patients being impacted, newborn, uh, you know, putting their lives at risk, frankly, I would pay so much money and all the money I've got, to save one human life yeah, no for sure, and I think that brings it brilliantly full circle.

Speaker 1: 1:57:08

And, to probably use one of the most overused trope in the built environment, you can't manage what you don't measure. And, um, I don't think it's probably ever truer than with air quality, that's for sure. Um, look, yeah, it's been absolutely brilliant talking to you this afternoon. Uh, thanks so much for being so generous with your time talking to me. It's been absolutely fascinating. We'll try and share many of the links of the things we've spoken about today in the podcast notes. Um, so thank you again for your time. Really appreciate it thank Simon.

Speaker 2: 1:57:43

It's been a pleasure and I want to appreciate the sort of efforts that you've been doing. I have so much appreciation and respect for what you're doing. I think what you're doing is well within the core of what public awareness and education you know. Please keep going. This is very critical. You know, I don't want to tell you you have no idea how much you know, but impact is going to do. But I've tried to listen to most of your podcast and then invite people to do so, because it's a lot of effort for you, for sure, to put it together and it's a valuable, valuable information when you listen to various voices addressing the topic from different angles. So thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:58:31

Brilliant. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening. Before you go, can I ask a favor? If you enjoyed the podcast and know someone else who might be interested, do spread the word and let's keep building this community. The podcast is brought to you in partnership with 21 Degrees, aeco, ultra Protect and Imbiote all great companies who share the vision of the podcast and are not here by accident. Your support of them helps their support of us. Do check them out in the links and at airqualitymattersnet. Your support of them helps their support of us. Do check them out in the links and at airqualitymattersnet. See you next week.