#5.2 - Nathan Wood: Unraveling the Ventilation Industry, the Power of Apprenticeships, and the Imperative of Indoor Air Quality

Part 2 - Nathan Wood - MD, Farmwood

Chairman of the Building Engineering Services Association (BESA) Indoor Air Quality Group and  Chair of the GCP Europe Indoor Air Quality Task Force.

Nathan is a straight-talking, no-nonsense practitioner providing ventilation and air quality services in the south-east of England across both residential and non-residential buildings The Farmwood team and in particular, Nathan, have a laser focus on quality outcomes and are not afraid to highlight the gaps we often see in our sector.

Much of what we talk about on this podcast, Nathan and his team are at the coal face implemented day in and day out.

He is also a prolific ambassador for the sector, not least through his roles in BESA, the indoor air quality group, and GCP Europe.

I always enjoy talking to Nathan; his enthusiasm for what he does, doing it right, and the legacy this work leaves for his customers, but also the pride he takes in his staff is infectious.

We talked about the gaps we see in performance out there and, how the sector needs to upskill his personal journey into the world of air quality and his passion for skills and apprenticeships.

Farmwood - https://farmwood.co.uk/
BESA - https://www.thebesa.com/
BESA Air Quality - https://www.thebesa.com/besa-focus-areas/indoor-air-quality
GCP Europe - https://gcpeurope.eu/
Ella Roberta Foundation - https://www.ellaroberta.org/about-ella

Chapters

• 0:01 Air Quality Industry Ventilation and Diversification
• 12:35 The Importance of Apprenticeships in Engineering
• 19:33 Engineering Apprenticeships
• 29:24 Air Quality's Impact on Health
• 37:15 Collaboration Enhancing Air Quality

Transcript

Simon: 0:01

Welcome back to Air Quality Matters and part two of my conversation with Nathan Wood. The question I had for you about Farmwood was are you exclusively ventilation now as a company? Is that pretty much all you do?

Nathan: 0:31

Pretty much. We do a bit of M&E Mechanical Electrical Works as well. We look after some local schools. We used to have our own plumbing and gas engineers as well, but because our work was diversifying more towards event, it wasn't sort of a mix we actually lost those team members because they just wanted to do what they were trained to do. Fortunately, they've gone and set up other businesses and we now self-contract to them and we've still got a very good relationship. Yes, it's day in, day out ventilation works. We've managed, amazingly, to stay completely independent as well, which in the last, as you say, two years has become really really difficult because people want to align with you. I love the associations and the way that we've built a reputation with them. That's really really positive. There's a lot of people out there that have been set up off the back of having association with the manufacturer.

Simon: 1:27

What's the pros and cons of doing that? I'm guessing, if you're specialising, if you're one-trick pony ie ventilation, it must be helpful to have a big brand behind you helping you with work and supply funnels.

Nathan: 1:48

The manufacturers are quite risk averse, though with direct experience in that sense, we offer a lot of bespoke work. So we carry out a lot of hand-in-unit flat packs and rebuilds. The manufacturers who may not offer that service, we carry that out and we take that warranty on and that ownership on for that product. There's nothing wrong with being associated with manufacturers. I'm not saying that because it's good to know that there is that relationship there. It's just for us. I didn't want to be restricted by terms and conditions of a contract whereby I couldn't work on somebody else's equipment. We actually work for a ventilation manufacturer who's got a contract for a housing association, but as a brand they can't be seen to take somebody else's equipment out to put theirs in. If it's still working, we're offered the opportunity to go in there and service and maintain it on their behalf.

Nathan: 2:47

There's lots of different avenues and niche works that we do for different people in different ways. I do really feel for the manufacturers because so many of them want to do more and I get that. They've all got the little IAQ groups and the people that are learning and coming up through the ranks and are certainly members of similar associations to ourselves. It's just that unless something specifies they're not going to put that funding towards it, to generate it through, which is why I was really happy with the new part F. And then we've got the new British standards, part one. Part two can't wait to come out residential. There are standards for them to look towards to develop in their products. But it's just, you do need that specialism, but you want that impartiality at the same time, and I think that's what we can offer.

Simon: 3:38

You want the freedom to be able to call out a manufacturer, if you need to, that it's not delivering what it should or that it's involved in something that isn't going to work without risking that business. Nathan, how did you end up actually in this industry yourself? You weren't straight into the family business, were you?

Nathan: 4:02

No, it's quite an interesting one really and it's completely diverse. Where I live on the Isle of Sheppey, there was a unfortunately it closed down a massive steel recycling plant and it was one of the main places for employment really where we lived. I've always had an interest in I wouldn't say engineering, in what I call tinkering. Certainly when I was young I always had that micro screwdriver set that my mum would try and hide, but I just loved taking things apart. They'd never go back together. I'd done the washing machine the other day, and this is no word of a lie. I didn't have a bolt left over, but I had a washer. It turned out it was a really important washer because something vibrated like hell and we spun it up.

Nathan: 4:47

I was always tinkering with stuff and I think also growing up with my parents being in scrap yards getting parts for cars back in the day when you could work on your car yourself with that needing programming. I've always been in and around that sort of thing and in the early days I thought I was going to be a mechanic, car mechanic. They had a real interest for me and I enjoyed what I was doing. I stayed on at college and done an NVQ in engineering, to get some decent qualifications behind me, to then go forward for a job. But back then, that's when you did have 30, 40, 50 people out there going for a job, all wanting the same job, I couldn't get a job and I was like, okay, my mom was like, if you can't get a job, we'll support you. Go to college, get some higher qualifications and maybe springboard a bit.

Nathan: 5:40

I went to Canterbury College and completed a national diploma in engineering two years Again, loved it and it was a mixture of hands on as well, which is really really good. They didn't have to do that where we was. But the engineering team your time served. True engineers that had sort of retired and then gone into education Went back to get a job. Suddenly I'm over qualified and I'm like how the hell? What's going on? I saw in the local paper the steel mill was advertising for apprentices and I was like that's going back on myself, surely. But I thought I've got nothing to lose, went for the interview but because of my qualifications I was able to leapfrog a few of the requirements Not fast track, I still had to do the foundations. So I was a 18 year old working alongside sort of 16 year olds, school leavers, in what I can only describe it's the best way of describing it the original film Mad Max, mel Gibson, where there's the Thunderdome that was the steel mill sparks flying, the most polluted place on earth, what I know about air pollution. I should never have stepped foot in the place. But the true engineering mentors in every sense of the word that we had there. Time served, true engineers. They were amazing. We would be put with each guy in the different department for three months and you would learn your skill. Back then I could measure really, really accurately and the equipment that we needed to repair. If we couldn't get it quick enough, we'd manufacture it. If there was a you're talking about a 90 tonne pot of molten metal being transferred across to a ladle and the crane would break down. I was part of the crane crew when I qualified. The core would go. You'd be up and you'd have the worst fire resistant overalls like Nan's itchy blanket all around you hard hat. As soon as you stepped foot in the place, you're beading with sweat. The dust would stick to you. You'd try and wear a face mask but they were pointless because they would just get blocked up quickly. You're on the top of this crane trying to fix a gearbox with 90 tonnes of molten metal slowly going off underneath you. You'd have to link things out and move it across proper, proper heavy industry, but a real brotherhood at the same time. When it closed, it was a huge blow to the area and the industry as a whole. That said, knowing what I know now, it's had huge benefits for the area in terms of its outdoor air quality, thus indoor air quality.

Nathan: 8:28

I was an engineer. I did qualify. Everybody was out of a job and my father had just started up the farm with nine months before, and I was like I'm out of a job, what have you got? It was still just him at that time and there wasn't enough work for me to join him.

Nathan: 8:44

I went from one extreme to another. I went from probably the dirtiest place on earth in steel and recycling to food processing. I was looking after a pine sausage factory's machinery, for that was probably about nine months, and again it was ying and yang uber clean, constantly cleaning your hands, different clothes for this area, different clothes for that area. Your tools had to be of a certain types. They could be picked up. Nothing could be plastic, metal detecting, and I learned everything from German automation of geared systems through to the hydraulic press for the staking kidney pie machine and everything else, and there was lovely points to it. I mean you go into the bakery and it'd be lovely and smell great and everything else, and you'd be into the sausage side. That'd be freezing, you know, really, really cold and horrible. But again, I think the diverse nature of heavy steel industry to food processing probably helped me a lot when I merged across into what was initially sorry, dad, the boring world of ventilation.

Nathan: 9:48

Back then it was. I thought I'd be desoldering these little circuit boards and changing fans and balancing them and everything else in it. It's not, it was just that's broke. Get rid of that. Here's the new one from the manufacturer. Plug that in, do your report and then drive home. So in the early days I didn't think I had a future in ventilation at all. It was probably a bit of a I'll drop in with dad for a bit, maybe have an easy year and then someone could come along and I'll get back into it. But I soon realized, constantly meeting different people visiting different places, getting to see the UK, you know. I mean I remember the first time I drove into London, but that warned me about these things called speed cameras. I'd never seen a speed camera before, you know, when I drove into London. It's changed since, but yeah, it was an eye opener. But I certainly didn't think 22 years later I'd be sat here and absolutely loving what I do.

Simon: 10:46

And it's still a family business.

Nathan: 10:49

Yes, 100%. So my father's recently retired as CEO, but not retired from the business. He's now our special projects advisor because he's got years up here that we need to tin open out and get out sometimes and he still likes to keep his hand in. He's not involved in the day to day at all but he's very, very happy and that was important to me. My sister's come on board as a director now. She came to us as health and safety and procurement so she's trained up in that and she completely owns that side of it as well. She's getting involved in associations and the national occupational standards and really pushing that agenda. So we've heard by my side we're a really really good team, really good team.

Simon: 11:29

What kind of area are you covering now with With Thalwood? Is it fairly localised? How far north do you go and west?

Nathan: 11:36

Well, we're based in Kent, so we're for those other viewers, not locals. We're about an hour from London. I'd love more local works. We've actually got in with a few local councils more recently, which is great. The majority of our works is in London, in and around London and the home counties, but with the right projects we will go nationally. We've had guys up in Scotland doing some flat pack and rebuilds. Our core area is sort of the south east, but for us the south east is as far as Norwich, across the Birmingham down to sort of Paul and Dorset. That's our core area. But because we've been going so long, we do know some really really good people subcontractors and there's a really good vibe, I think since COVID as well, in terms of supporting other businesses. It's not just about us, it's about building everybody else around with you. So we've got loads of sort of gentlemen's agreements where we share the workload around. I don't like the word subcontractor. It takes away that personability. They are genuinely friends that we work with.

Simon: 12:35

You were an apprentice when you started out. I know you take on apprenticeships within Farmwood. Talk to us a little bit about the importance of apprenticeships and what your hopes are for that side of the industry.

Nathan: 12:50

Yeah, yeah, I'm extremely lucky to have been an apprentice and gone through that learner journey. There's still works actually sold off the training centre prior to its demise and it's amazing that it's still in operation this day. So the very people sorry, two of the people that trained me are still training my guys now. It's an extremely well run organisation. It's called IPS International and they are true engineering. They're a true engineering centre. It's not about a profit making scheme. The guys go there for three, six week block releases and I love them to do we don't do milling and turning and all of that stuff. But knowing that they go through the same foundation as myself when they get near qualifying, when their eyes start lighting up and looking at the bigger world and thinking money's coming in now, I love nothing more than just rocking up on site with them and just running through a few questions and seeing whether or not they're still engaged and taking on board their training.

Nathan: 13:59

But, without question, apprenticeships and apprenticeships have been the lifeblood of our growth and without them we certainly wouldn't be in the position we are now. I mean an association in the UK that's been going over 100 years. Their very, very first-minuted notes spoke about skill shortages. And here we are today still talking about skill shortages and certainly we're pretty much always advertising for people to join us. But it's through the organic nature of an apprentice coming in that you can mould them into the person and that engineer mindset that you need them to be. We've found through experience it's a little bit more difficult when people have been in an industry and done something like electrical, mechanical, plumbing fabrication that can turn their hand, but they've already got that mindset of how they've done things in the past, whereas an apprentice you can mould to the far-mould way if you like. I mean we also guarantee them a job if they're successful. We're not in the realms of taking on young kids, abusing the cheap labour, if you like, and then at the end of it going congratulations, you've passed, go find your way in the world. In fact, we've got one of our apprentices, evan. He was my apprentice for a little bit as well. He's now an engineering supervisor, owns his job 100%. There's actually a guy that trained at the Steelworks as well before that went. He's come over to us now. So again, we've got that way. We all know how we tick, if you like. It's that engineering thought process and it's developing that through the business, and I think they all know when they join us, if I'm successful, I've got a job. And there's guys at this business that have been here 12, 13 years and they're now supervisors so I can work up that chain and have a career.

Nathan: 15:59

And I look to them as well, saying you're the next gen. Whichever gen we're on there, you're the tick-tockers and the social medias and the AI. You should be telling me what to do. I shouldn't be the one coming back to you and discussing ways in which you can drive the business forward, because they're the next gen. What do you want? What do you see from it? So it's really good to be able to be in a position to allow them time to go to the conferences and to learn from other people, because it's quite a daunting area. But without question, there's nothing I love more than seeing a spotty little Herbert walk through the door, not being able to give you eye contact, not being able to take instruction very well or to follow things through, constantly questioning themselves to coming up to you and going.

Nathan: 16:53

I've been to site and I've done this report today and that's not right. What do we need to do about that? Should I contact them directly, or do you want to take that on? And I just fall back in my chair and I was like bingo, done it, being with them, meeting the client and you seeing them holding the conversation, making good eye contact, handshake. At the start we even talk about the lift conversation. You just qualified as a technician, you've met your site contacts, you're in a lift.

Nathan: 17:19

What do you say? How do you break that barrier down between being that person in the new lad and your River Time serve guy that's thinking what's this kid going to teach me about something I don't know? And that's just to come back as well, that mind's eye of what an engineer looks like. You've only got to drive through London and you've put your past construction sites. You know you're near a construction site before you even see one, because guys are head to toe dusty and dirty.

Nathan: 17:47

Sat outside a fast food outlet, high vis jackets, all twisted up, hard hat, on the floor with ear defenders, to say to a young lad do you fancy a career in that? It's not really the mindset that you want. So we spend a lot of time with the engineers explaining to them If you're doing a dirty job, you've got your little suit that you, you know your disposable suit you can wear and you need to make sure that you dust yourselves down, and we've given all of the guys clothes brushes, you know, wet wipes. Keep yourself clean. Extra uniform, you know, if your PPE is dirty, we'll take care of it. Take a fresh one, as your heart hat all screwed up and got drawing on the side of it. Or do you look presentable? We should be a professional body. We're professional people. Why is it that we seem to be quite happy just to sort of be treated in a poor way or looked at in a in a lower class than what we actually are? I think there's a lot that the industry needs to change on that.

Simon: 18:44

There's two points you touched on there. One, I think, is the inherent value and joy you get as an employer seeing the development of employees and growth. That's very undervalued and I think anybody that employs people appreciates that it. That's you gets a lot back as an employer. Seeing people develop and grow personally and see them start families and get them more good years and grow and feel through the business that's, that's enormous value. But also there's this inherent value in being an engineer and there's an incredible shortage of engineers European wide, globally.

Simon: 19:31

So it's a. It's a career somebody should want to start. There are all sorts of levels of engineers. You can go the academic route, you can go the apprenticeship route. It should be the kind of career that mums and dads want their kids to go into, because there's enormous opportunities even within our small field of ventilation and air quality. It's such a diverse industry you could. There's a lifetime of career opportunity in any number of directions. Yet we don't seem to be getting it right, nathan, do we? We don't seem to be able to place highly enough the value in engineering and the value in apprenticeship schemes. Why is that? Do you think that it's cool? What is stopping mums and dads steering their kids into a career of engineering, even if they don't have the capability to go the academic route, to start with going the way of an engineering apprenticeship.

Nathan: 20:42

It's a great question. It's one that I've sat in many a conference and listened to and there's never been one solid answer. I do think there's a massive shift about to happen over the years to come and it's going to be. I think it's going to be driven by AI and I think people that used to look to do office works, iit works, anything that involves a laptop, anything that involves repetition or something that can be modelled and replicated by AI or certainly machine learning. And there's a great I recall a great image on the side of a construction site on the hoarding of the scaffolding saying chat, gpt, finish this building. And there's also there's a few people I follow on social media that say in the years to come that Uber, ritchie and Welfare will be the plumbers, will be the engineers, will be the mechanics, because, yes, you can program a robot to build a car, yes, you can have a robot diagnose a car, but the intricacies of being able to physically repair that car in an organic way I don't think will go.

Nathan: 21:50

How we attract our engineers is still through that relationship with existing people we're unable to attract. I've gone to local schools, I've spoken at schools, we've done events. I've been invited to another one next year as well. And it's almost like if you're not good enough academically, we just just go into engineering, just going to. You know. It's almost like when I talk to Europeans, you know, or people in Germany, you know, if you're an engineer in Germany you're like a doctor, but an engineer, do you know what I mean? It carries that gravitas. Oh wow, far too many people in the UK called engineers. That's why, quite positively, we put in a structure whereby the apprentices have a stepping stone, so they become technician level one, technician level two, then there's two or three tiers in the engineer side as well. That's not just on the pay scale, that's on their abilities as well. And there's some good money to be made in engineering, you know, or electrical engineering, or mechanics.

Nathan: 23:00

You know there's a massive, in my opinion, there is a massive divide between what people consider a career path and what people want to do. Because back in my local school they had a local engineering centre, you know, and it was a fantastic place. That's gone, the local college. They had an engineering centre that's now been reduced to car mechanics. Now that's just as important. But I then look at IPS International amazing training centre where the likes of Coca-Cola apprentices go and GlaxoSmithKline and places like that. They're putting like 20 or 30 apprentices a year. I do only I'm aware that some of those organisations only take on the top performers, which I don't blame them, but everybody else has had that foundation going forward, how you attract people in, I think there's a new angle as well in terms of health outcomes and how they can have a positive change on the world, because the whole ESG nature about engineering is massively coming to the forefront.

Nathan: 24:20

Sustainability is a big driver for the industry as a whole and I think people that start to look into that certainly my boys and some of the work that's coming back from school is all about sustainability, recycling. They're not saying it the words, but it's this circular economy and how we develop that. So I think AI will have a huge impact on it. Not yet, but I think going forward, and certainly schools and colleges should. Hopefully, with my opportunity to talk to them, we can change that message going forward. But we certainly haven't got a stream of kids knocking on the door saying can we come and work for you? We hear this is really cool and we can help people's health. We haven't been there yet, but hopefully that will change.

Simon: 25:04

Yeah, we need to make engineering a little bit more sexy, nathan, that's the thing. That's not you and I. I think there's some opportunities there and systemically to help us keep apprentices as well. I mean, it's incredibly hard to sustain an apprentice through inter-employment, isn't it?

Nathan: 25:28

If you're a young lad or lady, I'd love a female apprentice as well. We've tried and we've failed over the years. For that one, You've got a mobile phone bill. You've probably got a bit of rents about home and everything else. Why would you want to be an apprentice and earn less than minimum wage when you can go and work at a big supermarket warehouse and then significantly more an hour and just walk in, check in, do your bit, check out and go home? Why wouldn't you do that? I'd probably do that now if I had my time again. But for us as an organisation, as a business, we pay more than what we should and we incentivise and everything else. But for a lot of apprentices out there that work for some of the smaller companies and the bigger companies, there's no guarantee at the end of their job, at the end of their training. So why put yourself through it?

Simon: 26:22

And you can't be what you can't see, so we need to make it more visible for kids. There is an exciting career and a chance to earn decent money in engineering, and particularly in the business environment. Yeah, like a nursing qualification. If you're an engineer who can work on renewables heat pumps, say something sexy and exciting at the moment for people. You're an engineer in domestic heat pumps, you've got a ticket to work anywhere in the world right now.

Nathan: 26:56

And location doesn't stop with with us as a business. So my first apprentice, mark Bond, was your stereotypical spotty little oik, braces, crazy hair, mostly late in the mornings and man. At times I woke his mum and dad up trying to get him in the van in the morning. Qualified as an engineer, brilliant engineer, fell in love, came in after a meeting. I was like you're not having a penny more out of me, fella, and he said I'm leaving, I'm emigrating. My partner's South African, I'm going to go out South Africa, so it's start a life out there.

Nathan: 27:32

Went in to a job whereby he was building porto cabins into portable generators that are like dropped into the middle of nowhere, connected up, loads of problems with power outages and stuff out there. He then moved into design. He then moved into sales and now he's in charge of certain countries to promote and talk about the business and the corporate side of it and everything else. He has flown so from humble beginnings he's made it and we're still in contact and I love what he does. I love what it's about and just knowing that I played the small part in that sort of nurturing process and he's gone, it's amazing. I love talking about Mark. He's a really nice bloke as well, and he's done really, really well for himself. We've had other people that have joined us and have not been successful, truth be told. They have left and gone on to other things. Fortunately he's still in engineering, so it's no golden ticket, but certainly for the right aptitude you can go places.

Simon: 28:32

Brilliant. Tell me a little bit about BISA, because you're doing a lot with them at the moment, including heading up the indoor air quality group, and I know you have a more formal position with them now as well. Explain a little bit for people that don't know that organisation, what it does and how you came to get involved with them, particularly on the indoor air quality side of things.

Nathan: 28:58

So BISA is the Building Engineering Services Association and for a lot of businesses like ours you wanted to carry that badge on the back of your van. You know it was this sort of you had your trust mark, you had your construction line, your chairs, your ISOs, and then you had it was the HVAC Association, then BNES and then it became BISA. We've always been a member and it wasn't until I got more involved in the business. I was like what were we paying this membership for? What's this? Oh, they have regional meetings. You can go along and get involved. I'm going to go see what this is about. We've been paying this for years and not really done much with it. I know that they sort of worked on standards and we get this little booklet for and everything else, but again, never really got involved. And I went along to the local regional meeting and they were talking about fan call units and stuff like that and I spoke to one of the guys I can't remember his name, spoke to the guy.

Nathan: 29:53

At the end he was like, as an SME, you're sort of asking for us to get involved. I've always thought about getting involved. We spent all of this money for all of these years and at that time I said, oh, we know, we do business advice, we do mentoring and this and the other. And I put my name down and back then I arranged to meet a chap called David Fries and David Fries is now the CEO of BISA. I think that's the right time. I'd have got it wrong. The top man anyway met with him, explained everything that Farnwood did and at the time we'd just done a DRYSOS big build which is a TV program.

Nathan: 30:30

I'm sure there's similar ones around the world whereby either a family's doing an extension and somebody might fall sick or become ill and they've not been able to finish it off. And it's a real sort of pull at your heartstrings do good people, come together, build things, make things and have better outcomes. And we worked with a local project where they demolished the house, rebuilt it, we fitted an NVHR system with some really basic air quality monitoring, family of really poorly children, life limiting issues and the long story short is it had a profound change on their lives. The parents changed the way that they viewed air quality and air pollution. One of the children, curtis. He went from being hospitalized every changing of the seasons with pneumonia to never in the six odd years since he's been back to hospital, but never through pneumonia for the change of the seasons, because we're taking control of the air quality within the environment. So we've become friends with the family and everything since a huge, huge one. We could probably take over a whole podcast talking about them.

Nathan: 31:37

So I mentioned this to David and he was just like we've got a conference coming up in a few months. You should, really should, preach about what you're doing, because no one else is doing what you're doing. And I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. And then walked away thinking shit, I've never, ever done public speaking. How's this going to go? So before I knew I was, I was there in my poorly fitting suit and my shoes that were hurting me because I never really dressed up for that sort of thing, standing in front of a packed room of a hundred people all staring at you know the white eyes. Big gulp went, for it presented it really poorly and everyone clapped at the end like more than sort of usual and that was coming up and engaging the turn. This is great. And then a little while after that, I was invited to a few round tables where people were talking about this thing called IAQ and I found that myself and one or two others would just take it over and everybody else would be listening.

Nathan: 32:34

And I think I realized through doing the projects with the DOSUS and the Ratcliffe family and having children of a similar age and knowing firsthand that the health outcomes and the positivity that comes with that. I wanted to talk about it more, I wanted to do more in it and it's developed into a true passion. And I never understood when people loved their job, not what you know live to work, work to live and everything else, but it truly has. And now the work that I'm doing at with BISA is more legacy focused, because I understand how long things do take to change. So I was asked to become their indoor air quality chairman and it was a new group that they were setting up, sitting underneath the ventilation hygiene groups, and I sort of had a bit of imposter syndrome and said, well, why me, why not all of these other bigger businesses and corporates and everything else, and they said because you're just a voice without any sway from anybody else, you're quite happy to go.

Nathan: 33:35

Sorry, can you say that again? There's lots of abbreviations in our world, so I'm sure you appreciate that. What do you mean by that one? Okay, I did have one rule, and this is a rule that we still stick to to this day, which is the NA rule and Simon's part of this group as well. So this is quite good, I can say it now. If Simon wasn't then he had asked to be. This would have been a bit embarrassing, but it's no arseholes allowed.

Nathan: 33:59

Basically, I don't want anybody coming in with an agenda, you know, pushy product or anything else, and it's worked quite well and I think, because we're open and honest about it, people know that when they come in to get involved, they are getting involved to make positive change. And in the four years I've been chairman, working with Mitsubishi Electric, who sponsor these guides, and the core group of people, we've produced a basic how-to guide on indoor air quality a three-parter from the basics on the layman's level of what indoor air quality is, what you can do about it, all the way through to a risk assessment and mitigations. At the end. I was really quite guarded about the last guide because they wanted solutions and I'm very adverse to the sort of snake oil sales and there are lots of products out there that might be doing good things but they might be doing harmful things at the same time. So that was a difficult rope to tread.

Nathan: 34:53

And then more recently, in line perfectly timed really with the housing associations here in the UK and the housing ombudsman that's raising the issues around mold and dampens people's homes, which was highlighted by the tragic loss of young Awabishak up in Rochdale, whereby his living conditions were a direct reason for his passing. There was terrible mold and damp, poor administration and lots of other factors involved in that. But unfortunately, like most places, it takes a tragedy for people to pay attention. So it was never more timely that the guide was put out there and they're all completely free, free to download, free to use, free to put your letterhead on, to share them widely and that was vital for us. So big thanks to the people that sponsored that and got involved with their time.

Nathan: 35:40

So eight years ago, when I sort of went on this war path of learning more about air quality and pollutants and everything else this name come up, which was Rosamund, adu, kissi, deborah, and at that stage, on Twitter or X. Now I was learning about these mums for lungs, which has become a big association now, and all these sort of almost breakout regional meetings that were going on where people were complaining about air quality. Siddiq Khan was raising the profile of clean air in schools, and I just started going on to these little almost networking events where people would generally have a bit of a moan and someone would take some notes and try and get action from it. And I went along to one in Camden and I remember seeing Rosamund stand there and she explained how her daughter, ella, developed asthma and ultimately died through an asthma attack. But it was the causes around her asthma.

Nathan: 36:39

So she lived on a busy road or near a busy road on the south circular in London, a pollution hotspot, certainly a near quality management area. She walked along that road to get to school. Her school was near the place as well, so her whole youth was surrounded by air pollution and, yes, she did have one of the worst cases of asthma, no two questions about it. Um, ultimately it was the air pollution in and around her home and where she lived. That killed her and that was the outcome of the coroner's reports. And the strength, passion and will to do good from the loss of Ella through her mum, her campaigning and her associations, ellarobertaorg, is truly astounding and I can't put enough emphasis on that. So when I first saw her I'm writing down a name how on?

Nathan: 37:44

earth can I approach her and go hi, rosamund, really sorry to hear about Ella. I work in ventilation and air quality. Here's my card. How could I do that? How could I broach that? So I left it, just kept an eye on things, what was going on. And then one time we was actually at the uh, it was the London Mayor's office and she was leaving.

Nathan: 38:05

After another amazing talk with with a I know it's a friend of hers now and as I walked past I just thought now's my time, they seem in a jovial mood just went past and said really sorry to interrupt, ladies, rosamund loved his speech. I've been watching you for a few years now. I'd love to learn more. Can I buy you a coffee one day? And she just barely laughed, turned to her friend and went check this young guy out, I'm old enough to be your mum, or something like that. She come out with and I should, took my card. I sort of made a cheeky comment back and left and then two days later the phone goes and it's Rosamund and she's like right, when you buy me this coffee, met with her and literally said what I just said to you. You know I've bought you for a long time. I think that we can work really well together. I'm not looking at making business from this, but sort of to raise the profile of this, this, this, this.

Nathan: 38:58

And she never really understood the relationship between outdoor air quality and indoor equality because a lot of her companion in the early days was about the Eulez, about closing roads near schools and diverting traffic and everything else. So it was a bit of a sort of light bulb moment for her when I explained about ventilation and air quality and I couldn't believe it when she was like right, get me engaged, get me involved. And she started coming along to association meetings and she started talking about indoor air when I was at the meetings and I started. We set up a WhatsApp group and we started just sort of filtering information and meetings and everything else and I think it was it was only when her case made it through to the high court, I think it was, and the the prevention of future death's report came out about Ella and the main point, if I may, from that, is that the recommendation from the coroner was for health practitioners to take an active interest in where people live, work and play and their health outcomes, because had somebody taken that interest in Ella rather than prescribing her medication, asthma pumps, nebulizers and everything else steroids and whatnot would she have benefited from air purification, heat recovery, good ventilation, indoor air quality monitoring?

Nathan: 40:23

Without question it would have improved things whether she would still be here today. I cannot answer that question, but it would have alleviated her issues and Rosamund is more than happy for anybody to reference her, to talk to her, to reach out, to get involved, to question her. She is an absolute powerhouse and I completely admire everything about the woman and her family and and I've just got to check here she's she's just recently picked up a CBE from our new King, king Charles, here in the UK as well, which is an amazing double-edged sword, if you like. You know she shouldn't have needed to do what she she has done to get that, but what recognition for such an amazing, strong woman and the best recognition of all she could hope for is a change in regulations and legislation, isn't it?

Nathan: 41:20

yeah. So the Ella's law as it's been put through she's still fighting for that there's. Maybe you could link this, simon, in some ways. She's got the petition going out there as well. Be great to get that pushed through. The good thing is that now her profile has been raised through the associations, they're actively looking at working with her and sponsoring her and supporting her as well. So, yeah, it's, it's, she's I can't say enough she's, she's bloody amazing, ros. I don't think I could do it had I lost my child, I don't know.

Simon: 41:52

But yeah, she deserves all the credit she gets well talk about purpose when it comes to indoor air quality and air quality in general. I think that epitomizes it really. And as we finish up, nathan, often a lot of my conversations are with people involved in regulations and legislation and an academia, but we don't get to talk to people at the cold face very often, people that are on the ground trying to deliver good outcomes day to day. What should manufacturers be doing to support contractors more and to facilitate them to get better outcomes, do you think? Because they're your main supply chain. They're the people that are delivering the products and often generating the business in this sector. But it can be a difficult relationship at times with manufacturers, can't it? What could they be doing in general, do you think to help that, to facilitate better outcomes on the ground?

Nathan: 43:10

Whenever a product fails, the first thing people do is they see that badge, the manufacturer's badge, on the unit. It's an X, it's a Y. I work with all of them. Most of them they offer training. I say training in quite a loose sense. Depended on the manufacturer, you could go to your local electrical wholesaler and buy an MVHR unit over the counter with a load of ducting probably a load of flexible ducting as well Install it. I think that if manufacturers required a competency card number, almost a log of who's bought it, where it's going, capture some initial data capture for where it's going, that traceability will have a good impact on it as well. I'd fully support that. It would cause us a problem. I'd fully support it.

Simon: 44:05

Some care about the final outcome of a product because it's very difficult I was saying this to Peter Rigaby last week that it's very difficult for manufacturers to build in inherent care about outcomes. When you're selling a 40-quid fan over the counter of a trade counter. There's not a lot of built-in outcome performance in that pricing model. On one hand, on one side of the industry, you've got big manufacturers talking about good air quality outcomes from MVHR units and from MEV units and mechanical ventilation. On the other side of the same industry, you've got a lot of money at stake. Selling bucket priced intermittent fans we know are causing a lot of the problems in the marketplace.

Simon: 45:06

It's a difficult one to navigate but I get the sense from what you're saying that it's a little bit more focus on outcomes than just product sales would be interesting, perhaps something that's coming down the road, whether they like it or not anyway, because whether you like it or not, within a decade you're going to be judged by the ongoing performance of the products you sell. Anyway. You're going to have to get your head around it and work with companies like yourself to deliver outcomes. Otherwise the questions are going to get quite awkward at some point. What's your hope for the next five to 10 years.

Nathan: 45:47

We must change. There's no option. We need to change. Building safety actors delivered a huge problem for lots of contractors and associations to bend and flex and get their head around the changes that have been implemented, for the right reasons. We've also got net zero targets that keep getting pushed back 2030, 2050, whichever you look at With the skill shortage we've got, you've only got to look in any other article and then people are saying that heat pumps work. No, they don't work, they do work. Then you've got the sort of hybrids of heat pumps, stroke, NVHRs in units and everything else. Technologies evolving. I think businesses, certain agile businesses, need to evolve with that. There's training available. More training should become available. Certainly the movement that I'm seeing within associations, organizations, regulatory bodies, collaborations between health conscious companies and organizations and those that push in regulations.

Nathan: 47:01

It's not a case of you don't have to change. I think it's you must change. I never thought I'd be talking about a legacy at 43 years young. From what I've learned over the years, my naivety. Change does take time, but I think if we are to meet these net zero targets and we are to have a renovation wave like never before and we need to build houses at a faster rate than we ever have done before in a system that is pretty broken currently.

Nathan: 47:33

I think there is hope we can do it, but I think it's going to need open collaboration, Not just worry about your own overheads and your own bills and everything else. You need more of a friendly atmosphere around the table to make sure the things are done properly. You just need to care. I think you need to really care and understand that it could be your aunt or your uncle, your child, that's going to be living in one of these environments, working in one of these environments, Without that due diligence. I think it's too much of a corporate word. We need to care and attention to come into play. I think, as we've said all the way through this, it's more about health outcomes and people's lives. That are far more important.

Simon: 48:16

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Nathan, thanks so much for your time today. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. As always, that was a good two hours of chit chat, as ever, absolutely flew by. Thanks so much, and we'll talk again soon.

Nathan: 48:34

Thank you very much, Cheers son.