#88 Richard Blakeway: Damp, Mould, and the Balance of Power and Fairness

Richard Blakeway, Housing Ombudsman for England, takes us on a profound journey through the evolving landscape of social housing complaints and the critical issue of damp and mould that has transformed the sector.

"Home is a really emotional place," Richard explains, capturing the essence of why housing complaints differ from those in other sectors. With an inquiry reaching the Ombudsman approximately every 20 seconds, the scale of housing issues becomes starkly apparent. As an advocate for fairness, the Housing Ombudsman exists to address power imbalances between landlords and residents, particularly in a housing crisis where residents have limited choice and voice.

The conversation delves into how the Ombudsman's spotlight on damp and mould has shifted industry practices. Before the tragic death of Awaab Ishak, the Ombudsman noticed they weren't seeing enough damp and mould complaints relative to other housing quality indicators – suggesting these serious issues weren't being adequately addressed. The subsequent cultural shift has been remarkable, with Richard noting: "One thing I have seen less of is tenant blaming... that suggests there's been a change in behaviors."

Perhaps most revealing is his insight into what good practice looks like – culture, leadership, curiosity, and empathy forming the foundation for effective housing management. The implementation of Awaab's Law this autumn represents a pivotal moment, though Blakeway cautions against treating it as a "bolt-on" rather than integrating it into a comprehensive framework for housing quality.

Looking toward the future, he  emphasizes the importance of data and technology in moving from reactive to predictive maintenance models. While complaint volumes continue to rise (35% increase in the last financial year), he hopes to eventually see the uphold rate decline ahead of case volumes – indicating real improvement in local resolution and rebuilding trust.

The Housing Ombudsman

Richard Blakeway LinkedIn

Awaabs Law

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Introduction
• 5:25 The Role of a Housing Ombudsman
• 14:40 Culture, Stigma, and Communication
• 23:30 Damp and Mould: Detecting Patterns
• 31:35 Good Practice and Systemic Solutions
• 39:10 Arab's Law and Future Challenges
• 45:10 Building Data and Future Direction

Transcript

Simon: 0:00

Welcome back to Air Quality Matters. We already have the tools and knowledge we need to make a difference to the quality of the air we breathe in our built environment. The conversations we have and how we share what we know is the key to our success. I'm Simon Jones and coming up a conversation with Richard Blakeway, the Housing Ombudsman for England. Richard has extensive experience in housing and public policy, previously serving as the Deputy Mayor for London for Housing, land and Property. In this capacity, he led major investment programs overseeing the delivery of around 100,000 affordable homes and large-scale regeneration projects. As Housing Ombudsman, he has been a prominent advocate for a zero tolerance approach to damp and mould in social housing. In his spotlight reports, he emphasises that landlords must take a proactive responsibility rather than blaming residents for lifestyle factors such as cooking and bathing, which historically, have been wrongly cited as the root cause of many damp and mould problems.

Simon: 1:05

I think it's fair to say that, along with the death of Aouad Ishaq as a result of prolonged exposure to damp and mould, the Housing Ombudsman has made a significant impact and been a key organisation on the landscape of social housing in the last few years. On the subject particularly, that's difficult and deeply complex and nuanced. It is against this backdrop that we sat down and talked about these challenges and what the next few years might look like for the sector. I think it was a really thoughtful episode. We could only get an hour, but I think we covered lot. Please don't forget to check out the sponsors in the show notes and at airqualitymattersnet. This is a conversation with Richard Blakeway. In the simplest terms, what is an ombudsman and a housing ombudsman? What is your role and interaction with tenants? What's it predominantly there for?

Richard: 2:08

such a good question. Thanks, simon. Um, so an ombudsman I I kind of describe as an advocate for fairness. Around the world there's about 100, 120 different ombudsman schemes, I think, and sometimes they're organized around uh kind government functions, if you like. So you have kind of public ombudsmen that hold public bodies or government to account, and sometimes they're organized around sector and sectors and actually the housing ombudsman is a kind of mix of those, of mix of those, and in england we um by law, um, every provider of social housing and that's typically local authorities, housing associations, but also some other bodies, and, you know, large institutional investors, have to be a member of our scheme and that gives all residents within those buildings access to alternative redress through us. So whether they are renters or leaseholders, you know they have access to us.

Richard: 3:16

Ombudsman will have different powers as well as different approaches, but I'd say there's sort of three legs to our stall, powers as well as different approaches. But I say there's sort of three legs to our stall. So one is the bit that you'd expect which is in independent, impartial uh dispute resolution and we're free to access. So we offer a kind of free to access alternative to the courts and we will, you know, investigate a case and make our decisions and, um, you know, we we complete over 700 formal investigations every month, so it's quite a whole volume of work that we do. The second leg of the stall is raising local complaint handling, and we set a statutory code of practice for complaint handling. So even if a complaint doesn't come to us, it should be handled fairly a local level by by the members of our scheme, and we monitor that that's happening. And then the third leg of the school is is prevention and it's trying to learn from our casework to prevent issues happening again, and that's something which we've really developed as an approach in the last few years.

Simon: 4:27

That's interesting, and the voluntary aspect of it, the membership. Are you obliged, as a provider of housing, to be a member of the Housing Ombudsman or is that statutory? Is that set in law, or is that something that people sign up to and can decide not to sign up to?

Richard: 4:48

yeah. So the legislation that introduced our scheme was uh is from, is the housing act in 1996 it's been around for you know about, you know a quarter of a century now when it it set out a a mandatory and a non-mandatory part to our membership. So the mandatory bit are those providers of social housing. So it doesn't matter what type of organization you are, it's the product that meet that obliges you to join our scheme. But it also allowed for bodies to book private landlords who aren't providing social housing to volunteer to be members of our scheme. And some have, but it's a tiny proportion that they have. And that's been the really big gap in housing redress in this country, because clearly many of the issues that we see in social housing would be true of other tenures as well. And so the current government is looking to close that gap.

Richard: 5:48

The current government is looking to close that gap um with legislation which would create a? Um ombudsman for private landlords. Uh, and it's indicated during the passage of that legislation that it would uh like to unify that within the housing ombudsman service. So we offer a kind of single front door for people who who want to access your address, and that makes a lot of sense because the legislation, uh, a lot of the policy is is universal, it's tenure blind.

Richard: 6:13

But I've definitely noticed in the time six years that I've been in this role. I've definitely noticed um both ombudsmen that deal with housing complaints alongside other issues as well, focusing more on some of the housing related issues. So, for example, the northern island public services ombudsman has just started an investigation into disrepair and housing repair complaints, and I also you know where in australia, the victoria ombudsman, and elsewhere they've been looking more at housing issues and I think a housing ombudsman may have been set up in one of the states in Australia. So I think housing is an issue, whether or not you're a dedicated ombudsman for housing or whether it's part of the mix of work that you do. It's become a much bigger thing, I think in the time that I've been in this role.

Simon: 7:00

And the interesting thing for me about an ombudsman, particularly in this sector, is it really is a manifestation of where the rubber hits the road when it comes to things going wrong in the provision of housing. So, by the nature of what you're doing, you're seeing outcomes that aren't resolvable necessarily within the structures that are there and you come in then and as an impartial adjudicator, really to see how these things can be resolved. So you're seeing in very real terms where, where we run out of road, basically in housing, don't you?

Richard: 7:46

I think that's so true. I think home is a really emotional place and I think that really comes across in our casework. And over the years we've expanded as a service because of the volume of cases that we're handling. We get an inquiry. Just about every 20 seconds we get an inquiry, which just shows the need that there is. And so when we've recruited caseworkers who may have worked for an ombudsman in another sector, you know, typically they've said to me I came into this role thinking I've done this.

Richard: 8:19

You know case investigation elsewhere, I know what an ombudsman does and they're really struck by the very emotive side to our, to our casework, and that's quite different and can be quite challenging and obviously very challenging. For for the parties involved, I think there's um. I mean an ombudsman by design is there to try and address imbalances of power, um, and that in offering an alternative to the court's process, we're trying to level the playing field and we do that because we're free to access but we also do it now the way we investigate, uh, and the way that we handle evidence, um, because otherwise you you end up with, you know the court process can still have imbalances of power in it. It's who can afford it, it's who can afford the best legal representation. Can you know can, can can have an impact, um, and so an ombudsman's there to try and level that playing field.

Richard: 9:12

And I think what I see in my case work is is that real imbalance of power that can exist in social housing. However poor the service provision is, you've got very limited choice as a social tenant. You know where there is a crisis, as there is in housing and therefore an acute shortage, individuals end up with very limited choice, much less power, much less of a voice, and I think that's definitely something that comes across in our case work and we can see some really, um, you know, we can see some good practice, but we can also see some circumstances where clearly, people's voice is not being heard and the system is unresponsive to their needs, and that has a huge impact on them when home is that, you know it's that foundation for their lives, and it will affect not just you know, not just the roof over their heads. It will affect their health, their education, you know their aspirations, their, you know their ability to get on in life.

Simon: 10:15

I get a real sense from talking to you and also from what I read from you that this is something that you got very early on in this role. You, that this is something that you got very early on in this role was the impact the home has on people's health and well-being foundation for life, the impact it has on their mental health and their ability to contribute to society. That seems to resonate very heavily through your tenure and through your forwards in a lot of the documents you wrote, and it was one of the ones that really first struck me, actually, when I was reading some of the stuff from the Housing Ombudsman and I'll quote you on one, if you don't mind, because it was from. If you cast your mind all the way back to the spotlight on damp and mould and I know it wasn't your first spotlight report, but it was one of the ones probably that resonated the hardest in the sector. I think, and you said at the very beginning, there are many and varying root causes that lead to damp and mould in the cases that we investigate.

Simon: 11:18

But the impact on the resident is a thread that runs between them. You can see the distress is a thread that runs between them. You can see the distress, disruption and even embarrassment felt by residents and you can see evident concern about their health and well-being, especially mental health, and the impact on any children Whether or not we uphold their complaint. This experience is real and it's profound. That was a very insightful paragraph for somebody that. I guess it was fairly early days. Was it in your tenure as housing ombudsman? I'm guessing you must have seen some cases straight out of the blocks that must have impacted you and your team quite heavily. In writing those kind of forwards yeah, that's absolutely right.

Richard: 12:05

It's kind of you to describe it in that way. That report was it would have been about year into doing the role. So, and I think one of the things which and and those feelings that I expressed them, what I I would express probably even more strongly today and I I it really has grown as a theme. I think, coming into the role, one of the things I was very aware of uh and it was apparent during uh reflection on the grunfeld tower, um tragedy is um is the sense of stigma that can exist, uh for social tenants and the kind of cultural issues that can exist around social housing, and sometimes those cultural issues can be expressed through poor communication and sometimes we can talk about communication is such a strong theme for many ombudsmen working in many sectors and it can come across here in housing complaints as well.

Richard: 13:10

And sometimes, I think you know, communication can be looked at in a quite transactional way. You know how quick is someone to answer the phone, how fast is an email, and those things absolutely matter. But actually there's a tone about it as well. There's, you know, stigma can come across a tone in the tone and I think, looking at some of these cases, the things which I've been really, really struck by is the absence of empathy that can sometimes exist.

Richard: 13:38

You know, you have someone who you know is describing, uh, you know, living conditions which are very challenging, confusion over what's going to happen and anxiety over the impact that it's having on them, and the response that they can receive can be tone deaf. I mean, it can absolutely lack any kind of empathy, and I think one of the things which I've always said to colleagues here is that we can express empathy without compromising our independence and impartiality, um, and that you know, and I think there is, they're really you know, and and getting that culture right, of which communication is part of it, then does lead you into creating the right system that you need to actually effectively deal with the, the issues.

Simon: 14:32

You know the right systems, processes, policies you know those are, you know those are only going to be as good as the culture yeah, and I and I think one of the the things that the housing ombudsman does is obviously one of the first things it does is it addresses agency. It puts some agency in the hands of a tenant where there may not have been some before or they felt they didn't have any, and that's a very under-recognized tool for people to deal with the problems that they're having is having the agency or feeling like they've got the agency to do something about it. Because, you're absolutely right, tenants have very often felt that they don't have any options, you know, and things like damp and mould is a manifestation of that. It's a manifestation of a building failure for a whole host of reasons that for some reason, a tenant has lost that agency to be able to deal with, and a housing almost is a very important piece in bridging that gap, isn't it?

Richard: 15:38

That's absolutely right. I mean, by the time someone reaches us, they're at their w, at their wits end. You know. They've gone through a process which may have taken months, possibly years, and they will feel gas lit during, sometimes during that process they'll feel like their concerns are not being, uh, listened to or taken seriously. So I think I hope that when someone reaches us and I recognize it can take some time for us to to complete our investigations on cases but when they reach us they're, they're getting a fresh pair of eyes looking at it, they're being heard and we're piecing together the evidence that we have and working out what should have happened.

Richard: 16:16

And our judgment is based on both reasonableness and fairness and we take into account individual circumstances and those and that's by statute we take into account individual circumstances and I think that matters so much because, um, you know, sometimes, um, you know, we, we, we see kind of broad brush responses that simply lose sight of the person living behind the door of the you know, and don't always connect the condition of the property to the circumstances of the household. Um, and you know, and that's that's. And this is where I think we, you know, we've tried to get into our kind of learning role and preventative work, because you know it's not unusual for an ombudsman to experience a bit of defensive nurse sometimes, a bit of saying that cases are one-off and isolated. Now I'd say I had a bit of that early on, but I'd say now it's very different overall and there's much more engagement and positive behaviors in relation to learning from cases.

Richard: 17:23

But those you know that individual resident is highly unlikely to have an experience that's unique to them. You know it will have an impact on them which is individual to them. But actually if there's been poor communication, poor handling of records, poor inspection, poor scheduling of works, poor contractor oversight, all of the kind of things that we've seen, that's unlikely to be a one-off. And I think one of the things which we're trying to do is get landlords to join the dots between the cases and then actually policymakers to join the dots as well and think about, well, what is the framework that needs to be provided here to provide good homes?

Simon: 18:09

And when I go back to the spotlight on repair that you published in 2019, there's a lot in that that would resonate with a lot of what you've published since and, like you say, for good reason, these things aren't unique. The things that lead to disrepair requirements for an ombudsman are going to be the same kind of things that often leads to issues with damp and mould. But did you have any sense when you were taking on this role those years ago that damp and mould was going to be such a pernicious topic for you to deal with and was going to grow the legs? That it did, because it's certainly become a very big part of your mandate is dealing with and looking at the issues of damp and mould in housing, hasn't it?

Richard: 19:00

That's absolutely right. No, I didn't envisage it. The reason why we decided to do a focus on damper mould was partly because we didn't think we were seeing enough cases about it and we thought that we could see in some of the cases that we were handling that there were characteristics common across them which which pointed to a deep unfairness in the way that they were being handled, including, um, you know, uh, uh, placing the onus on the tenant, you know kind of tenant blaming approach. But then when we looked at uh, analyzed our case work overall, we thought we were seeing too few cases in relation to Dampamol, given other indicators out there around the decency of homes and so on.

Simon: 19:51

That's interesting, because the assumption would be the spotlight report was there because you were seeing an overwhelming number of complaints and you felt you had to report it, but actually it was the other way around. You were seeing patterns that you were saying, well, we should be seeing more of this. There's something here that we need to spotlight and bring to the fore. That's interesting.

Richard: 20:14

Yeah, totally right, and we take a dual approach. So sometimes we will see we've got a clear trend or a significant volume of cases. So why are we seeing those cases? What is it in there? And sometimes it's that indicator that says it's like the canary in the coal mine.

Richard: 20:33

And I'm such a strong believer that complaints can be an early indicator of something that's not working in the way that it should be, um, or or should lead you to re-evaluate as an organization how you approach an issue.

Richard: 20:47

And absolutely, you know, and I've seen it, for example, with it's not air quality related, but I've seen it, for example, with window related complaints, where we raised the flag in relation to windows that we were seeing boarded up for years, and similar kind of responses about you know what we'll replace the windows when we do major works, even if those major works are years away and the windows are not fit for purpose right now, which can have implications for damper mould, you know, or ventilation issues, if the windows end up, you know, being boarded up, and that, absolutely, since we raised the flag on that one, we started to see an increase in cases coming to us. And it's exactly the same as happened with damper mould, which now I mean having gone from not being as sizable in our casework than we thought At one point. It was about 50% of the cases we were handling.

Simon: 21:45

Yeah, and I was just about to say fast forward to 2025, we've had the case of Arabishak. Since then, we've had Arabs law starting to come into force. I think start first phase of it this autumn. It's a very different landscape now than it was five, six years ago.

Richard: 22:00

That's absolutely right. I think it's. You know you could argue it's kind of 40 years overdue some of these changes.

Richard: 22:08

I remember during uh some of our investigation investigation, seeing a video um of a uh documentary from the early 1980s where it was probably a BBC documentary and I think they'd gone into a home to talk about damper mould with the residents and what the residents were saying then would be repeated by residents today. It was so striking. So I think in a way it's taken a long time to get to uh, this kind of reckoning around how it's done for the whole mold uh handled, but in a very short space of time I think there's been a rapid re-evaluation, which is everything from culture through to systems and technology and um, and and clearly it's become a greater priority for landlords and I think that, whilst the circumstances in which that's come about is something that should never have happened, I think the fact you've got that level of responsibility now is encouraging and I'd like to think many landlords would say that having the insights from complaints has been beneficial for them to really think through well, what do they need to do? How do they improve handling?

Simon: 23:32

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Simon: 25:18

Now back to the podcast.

Simon: 25:20

It was a note I made actually very early on when you were talking, richard was good practice I mean obviously the reflections of an ombudsman is that you get to see things at the end of the road, at the dead ends, where things can't be handled anymore and you need somebody to come in.

Simon: 25:39

Do you, as an ombudsman service, get to see enough of the other side of the coin as well, the good practice, the when it works, to be able to reflect Because that's so important, to understand why you see the failings that you do, because that gap is really particularly when we view this through the lens of risk say, it's really important to understand what good looks like. Do you get a sense of what good looks like when it comes to things like damp and mould and particularly handling? I'm not saying you have an answer for fixing damp and mould. I mean that's a systemic housing problem that extends way beyond just the rented sector, it has to be said. But do you get a set? Do you get a really good picture of what good looks like from an organizational perspective, of of how to do this thing?

Richard: 26:31

right? Yes, I, I think we do. I mean, I'd say, roughly speaking, about one in three cases that we handle, um, we would find that, uh, the landlord had responded reasonably, so there is. So, whilst the majority is where there is issues, we do have, you know, still significant cohort of cases where you can see what good looks like, I think, in terms. What are the characteristics of good? Well, I do think culture is a really key part of this. Culture and leadership. So an openness, transparency, listening, all of those kind of learning, all of those kind of current behaviors are kind of really cascade through an organization and through an approach.

Richard: 27:14

I think curiosity is in there, um, and so you know, good, good, good handling will be, you know, really listening to the resident, really investigating, really trying to understand why something has happened and then trying to join the dots. So, in relation to damp and mold, it would be not just doing a mold wash and moving on and repeating that exercise a few times over the coming months and years. It's actually doing an, you know, really thinking about, okay, well, we need to inspect this building, potentially understand why it's happening and then think about, you know, depending on the type of building, whether other properties are, you know, being affected as well, and so you're moving from being reactive into a much more preventative space, I think good also can recognise that, you know, and particularly with damper mould, you know it's not always a quick fix, particularly depending on the causes, and so thinking about the circumstances of the household at that moment in time and treating them with respect and empathy. So if there needs to be multiple inspections, you know will the resident be wondering well, why is this person coming and going, what are they thinking, what are they found? So really clear communication, really open and transparent communication.

Richard: 28:33

If the resident might need to be moved, handling that with sensitivity, given the disruption you know, so that you know they're, either you know, so that you know they're, either you know protected from harm or the appropriate works can take place. And then, I think, following it up, you know, because, again, damper mold, you know you might think you've fixed it but it might reoccur, and so you know it's that, monitoring a casework, that kind of aftercare and cutting throughout all of that is really good records and then using that insight and knowledge to then inform your strategy, going forward and, you know, and, as I say, moving to that preventative model, rather than kind of whack-a-mole, which sometimes can still be um you know, be the case, partly because of the pressures and resourcing issues that many, many landlords face yeah, yeah, and those, those pressures are manifest.

Simon: 29:33

You know, and I and I think from my perspective anyway, I've kind of viewed this journey that we've been on over the last half a decade in phases and I think there was the recognising you've got a problem phase happened a couple of years ago with the death of Vowabishak and the reaction of the government at the time. So you know, drawing some pretty hard lines in the sand about that. This needs to be dealt with. So I think we've kind of gone through that governance reaction phase where all of a sudden jobs were on the line and boards were standing up and paying attention and you've seen that resonated beyond the borders of the UK. I should say as well that the reaction in the UK has been reflected upon much further afield. So I think that's been a really interesting phase.

Simon: 30:25

But as we move into this period now where Arabs Law starts to be implemented this September, october, I think, if I recall correctly, we've got to do something about it. Now phase. Do you see any risk? Because there's no doubt about it, there's a huge challenge ahead of housing generally with the condition of stock and resolving the fundamental issues that drive things like damp and mould. There was clearly a need to get a better reaction from housing. Hence the need for something like Arab's Law that looked at timings and reactiveness. Do you think, because we're so far behind in dealing with this, that there's a risk that we actually exacerbate reactiveness as opposed to proactiveness in the short term, that, trying to chase the demands of something like awab's law over the next year or two, that we start firefighting rather than dealing with the causes of the fire in the first place, because that seems to me to be a potential risk with with where we are at the moment?

Richard: 31:32

I think we're absolutely reaching, certainly within social housing. We're absolutely reaching the point where, uh, there needs to be a fundamental evaluation of what is a decent home. You know, there was a piece of public policy, uh, in the early noughties, at the turn of this century, where, um, you know, the uh, a new standard for housing was in, social housing was introduced. Uh, now we're kind of coming to the you know, to the you know to the kind of end of some of those interventions and that's really showing up in our casework. Uh, the government has, um, just published its consultation on a reform decent home standard and I think it really learns from the last one and it's a step change, um, you know, which is, which is, you know, could be really, really welcome and also look to say, well, that standard should not just apply to social housing, it should apply to private rented housing. So I think that approach will ensure that you, you know, landlords are really clear on how they balance the different pressures and that you don't end up with unintended consequences in the way that you've described, I think, one of the big challenges with AWAPS law.

Richard: 32:54

Well, a couple of thoughts on AWAPS law. I think one is about ensuring that AWAPS law isn't a bolt-on to existing kind of policies and practices but is really integrated. It leads to a strategic rethink and practices, but it really integrated it. It leads to a strategic rethink because I think that's what was missing when perhaps the hazards were articulated. Back in 2004 we had 29 hazards introduced and that included damper mold and lots of other issues and I think they were seen as a bit kind of led by local authorities. You know it was the result of an improvement notice but issued by local authority, you know it. It just wasn't embedded into practices to the same to the extent that it. It should have been um, and so I think you know our law needs to be integrated into a framework and an approach, not just added on um and then I think the other, the other thing is that there's a lot of focus on what happens when our law is triggered, but there's a lot of discretion over triggering our our law.

Richard: 34:03

So under the um, the requirements and the guidance, it's left to the landlord's judgment. The word judgment is used in the guidance of when to apply our law. You know, that's quite. It's left to the landlord's judgment as to whether there would be, could be, significant harm. So I think those are things which landlords need to be really confident that they've got a clear and consistent approach on, because otherwise the issue is not only and it's important not only. Are you handling our law well, under our law, you know, doing the inspection in the time required, producing the written statement to the household in the time required, and so on. But actually, did you know it was our absolute to start with? Did you know you should have applied there? It's something that landlords themselves are going to have to be able to answer um and find an approach on yeah, and one of the interesting things for me particularly about damp and mold is is because it's a.

Simon: 35:06

It's effectively a manifestation of a, a breakdown, a failure of a living space, and there are all sorts of drivers to damp and mould, from disrepair and ingress of physical water to failures in ventilation systems, to over-occupancy, to the affordability to heat of a home. It's a really complex balancing act managing moisture risk in buildings. This is not simple building physics. It includes social sciences and all sorts of things. So it's a complex picture and the reason I mean damp and mould gets a visceral reaction because it's unpleasant, it's unsightly, it's harmful to health in the extreme it's deadly but it's a visible and physical manifestation of a building failure. There are many other building failures that don't have that level of visibility and ventilation, which is one of the key pillars of managing moisture risk in buildings, can fail catastrophically and not manifest as damp and mould. So we can have people living in conditions with much milder versions of damp and mould than would make it onto the housing ombudsman list, but still living with categorically failing ventilation systems, which is impacting people's long-term health and well-being. I think that's one of the unintended consequences.

Simon: 36:35

For me over the next few years is a lot of focus on what, effectively, is one element of a building failure.

Simon: 36:43

The risk is diverting attention away from the core fundamentals that have driven that in the first instance, from the core fundamentals that have driven that in the first instance.

Simon: 36:53

I'll give you one example. We were doing a walk around with a Voids team for one of the larger housing organizations there a few weeks ago, and precisely 100% of the ventilation systems we went to see were nowhere near doing what they should be doing. Not even close so catastrophic failures in the ventilation to be doing what it should be doing. Not even close so catastrophic failures in the ventilation to be doing what it should be doing. Now, only about half of those properties now, half is a lot, but only about half of those properties were displaying signs of damper mould. So I think the damper mould thing is an interesting one because it's a manifestation of a complex systemic failure. For a whole host of reasons, it presents a very unique challenge, but the risk is that we divert or we miss some of the things that are driving it in the first instance because of the focus on the fact that it's damp and mould. Do you know what I mean?

Richard: 37:49

Yeah, I do recognise that and I think that's fascinating and that description of that visit is really very interesting. And I think certainly one thing which I've seen in our casework is that damp and mould tends not to be the sole issue that we're looking at. There will be other issues relating to the property's condition, and that that points very clearly to, um, you know to, to to really thinking about the uh, the lifespan of some, some housing and the suitability of some housing. Um, and I think sometimes you know clearly, we pick up the, you know the property may have been re-let relatively recently and it's kind of again, it's sort of like you might technically meet the void standard, but is it a suitable home, is it gonna, is it? You know what issues might present themselves. So, again, that intelligence and insight needed on buildings and that that you know is is, I think really um, there's a bit of catch-up going on and I think it's a positive driver in the regulatory system at the moment is clearly the regulator is expecting of social housing, is expecting the bar to be raised on stock condition surveys, the frequency and intensity of those, the frequency and intensity of those, and that's going to give us lots more data and knowledge about homes. It's probably going to mean, therefore, the scale of the challenge is bigger than what we know today. And then you get into your point around ventilation and the M&E that you might have in a building and how that works, which is absolutely vital as well.

Richard: 39:35

Connecting in the individual circumstances, or household circumstances, is critical here.

Richard: 39:40

And then thinking about the long-term maintenance of housing, and this is an area which we've explored in some of our work recently, and I think one of the real challenges is that actually, the maintenance model in this country probably isn't as developed as it could be, and that's because it's been under-resourced. Usually have a stick debate about that, but how we use technology, um, how we, you know, move, as I said, to this kind of predictive model rather than reactive one, uh, and then how we consider the different components of a building and focus more on their functionality rather than their age, which has perhaps been the tendency at times in the past, I think are all key ingredients to really elevating our maintenance model, uh, you know, in this country I think it's really interesting you say that and a lot of the strategic work that I do with housing organizations is that shifting to the performance of systems as opposed to the fact that it exists or not you know, most of our stock condition surveys is is there a fan, yes or no?

Simon: 40:48

does it make a noise when the light switch goes on, yes or no? And moving more increasingly towards is it functionally doing what's needed for this property, and that shift in mindset can be quite profound because it resonates through the housing organization. It was interesting to hear what you said about the data as well. I mean that landscape has changed dramatically even in five years, isn't it? Our ability to to have both environmental data out of buildings but also connect quite a large pot of broader data sets into the mix to understand stock conditions, how homes are used, their environmental conditions, that's a profound shift in the sector, isn't it I guess you've seen that as an ombudsman as well that the potential for data to unlock and give us visibility where we've not seen it before could be enormous.

Richard: 41:44

Yeah, I think there's a universal recognition that there needs to be an urgent focus on on ensuring that uh, um, landlords know what they need to know, um, the data and and the use of that data is, is enhanced and you've got lots of external pressures to do that as well as, I think, landlords really recognizing the, the, the value of that, uh, and it's a cultural thing as well, and it you know, and I do, you know, we, I do think the right leadership is needed to make sure that data is is, you know, respected and utilized effectively. Um, and it's it's trying to get everyone to understand their role. So, you know, to, sometimes you can have, you know, you know if you're an operative in a property, you know you need to understand the value of the information you record because it can have an implication in the boardroom. Um, and I, I, you know, but we know, we know there are some real challenges to be overcome, which can be overcome, but to be overcome until we get to a place where we've got that data is telling us what's needed to be known. There's obviously issues around systems and some legacy arrangements. There's obviously some data quality issues and completeness, and then there's the usability of that data and how that data is accessed and used, and I think perhaps this will transfer into maintenance and repairs a bit.

Richard: 43:19

You know, I think there was a real wake-up call, clearly following Grenfell Tower, for the sector around building safety. And you know, know, I remember a presentation from a housing association which was really open and thought-provoking, where they said look, they don't quiet this building that had been built 70 years ago. They acquired this building, you know, they discovered, you know, as a result of the building safety issues that you know, actually it was two buildings that at some point being connected together. But at the point they purchased it they didn't realize that it wasn't until they'd done intrusive kind of work on the building that they actually understood so much more about this building. And the fact doesn't say it was two buildings and that's, you know.

Richard: 44:08

And I think all of that um will, you know, should produce, uh, you know, a kind of transferable kind of model, if you like, playbook, that could be applied a little bit here to um, you know, to repairs and maintenance. Because, you know, because we know there's a gap and we see it daily in our casework Repair records that are missing, repair records that don't tell you very much and then whether or not those records are used. I mean that is a daily occurrence in our casework. That said widely recognised very little dispute over it. So I think there's a lot of positive energy going into Fixit.

Simon: 44:49

What's the direction of travel on the cases that you're seeing coming across your desk at the moment? Are you still seeing an increasing amount of uh requirements for the housing ombudsman, and is that due to increasing awareness of the, the need and that as an avenue, um, and if that's the case, how? How do we deflect that to a downward trajectory? What? What needs to be put into place, do you think, or what? What are the things that need to be there for us to start to see this thing getting handled and for you to be needed less, which has got to be the goal, I guess, ultimately?

Richard: 45:29

yeah, so I think the, so the the trajectories upwards, um, last year we had about a 30. The last financial year we had about 35 percent increase in cases coming to us that reached the threshold for formal investigation. Year before that it was about 60. So the increase in case work is, it remains, um, you know, relentless in some ways and um but, but. And that's not necessarily a negative in the sense that I think it is reflective of, uh, increased access, increased awareness and increased value being placed on the complaints process.

Richard: 46:11

And I think if you were to look ahead five years, what you want to see is the uphold rate. You know where we're finding full decline, but you'd want to see that decline ahead of. You know the traffic coming to us or the casework volumes coming to us, because then you're getting real assurance that actually it's not that stuff's going underground, uh, or being shoved under the sofa, it's actually it's getting fixed. Things are getting better locally and expectations have changed and trust is perhaps rebuilding. So I would hope over the next five years to see a decline in our administration rate ahead of a decline in our casework volumes.

Richard: 46:49

I expect over the next five years probably our casework volumes will remain high um in terms of the small, in a sort of more qualitative way, of what we're seeing, I'd say, on, specifically on damper mold, the one thing which I have seen less of doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I've certainly seen a lot less of it um compared to when we did our, you know, spotlight report and that forward that I wrote several years ago is the tenant blaming that. That, you know, occasionally we'll see it, but that is less prevalent now in our case work. So that suggests that there's been a change in behaviors, which is a really positive thing to see. Still, issues in the delivery, especially delays, um, but, but, but none nonetheless, there's, you know, the delays to inspections or delays to repairs. You know that that's still very common, but the the attitude that seems to have shifted.

Simon: 47:49

Yeah, that's really interesting and I thought it was really interesting what you said about the over a five-year period still seeing a quantity of complaints coming in as a reflection of the built environment and how long this is going to take to fix qualitatively in either the measure of the complaint, the kind of complaint that's coming in and how it's handled, whether you're upholding it or not. That you're seeing. You know mould will exist in the built environment. That's a given in a lot of circumstances. It's going to take a very, very long time for us to sort every building out. The difference is how it's handled by people when it comes across people's desks yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

Richard: 48:32

I mean, I think the trust is really fractured, you know, and I think that's just just sadly. Uh, you know the situation we're in. So so there is, there has been a fragmenting of trust, which means people are more likely to bring cases to us, for very understandable reasons. I think there's also landlords ask, you know the one in three cases where we're not finding fault. Mostly in those cases things will have gone wrong, but the landlords recovered the position. There's actually only about one in 10 cases where we'd say that the landlord there was. Nothing went wrong at no point really. So the challenge for the sector is how do they get upstream? So they're better at catching a falling ball in some cases, but how do they stop that ball falling?

Simon: 49:31

I think it's still a bit of a bit of a challenge for some landlords yeah, and in at the core of the dna of a lot of these organizations is social care and tenant-centric behaviors and, you know, like a lot of these big organizations do genuinely want to do the right thing. It will be very interesting to see as we move from these big organisations that have systemic challenges because of both the size and the quantity and quality of stock that they're managing, as the ombudsman then starts to take on more and more private rented sector. If the law comes through and you end up being an ombudsman for the private rented sector, you're going to be dealing with a much more disparate cross-section of landlords with perhaps different motives I'm not saying bad motives but they're not going to have that social imperative behind them necessarily that the social housing providers have.

Richard: 50:22

It's going to be interesting to see if any of those dynamics change as more and more of those come across your desk absolutely agree with that and I think the you know, I really think that the sector has embraced learning from complaints and trying to make uh, that a kind of routine experience. You know making that part of uh, you know the fabric of continuous improvement and that's really, I think, really really positive. I've definitely seen a shift away from kind of knee-jerk, defensive into more curiosity, more wanting to learn and humility around. You know this and we recognize the really complex and challenging operating environment. I think that one of the things which really speaks in our casework is just the complexity, though, of of housing management.

Richard: 51:12

Um, you know whether that's complexity in terms of the building, whether that's complexity in terms of ownership you know superior leaseholder, freeholder, who's different, you know different ownerships or complexity in terms of the delivery model, uh, and you know using contractors or however it's organized, and that complexity really really comes across. And clearly, with that complexity, things can fall between gaps. There can be, you know, tensions, and I think the thing which we will continue to focus on is ultimately the accountability, and you know who is, who is ultimately responsible and accountable for for changing that, and that's quite because, if you're the resident, it's cold comfort to be told well, that's not our bit, that's someone else's bit. You've still got the problem. So you know, as a resident, you still want it sorted out and you don't want to be passed from pillar to post. And I think that's a key bit of our role is saying look, the delivery model might be complex but you've got to be really clear-sighted on the accountability and take ownership.

Simon: 52:13

yeah, no, absolutely. Richard, I appreciate you spending an hour talking to me. I know you're tight for time today, but it's been really insightful talking to you and getting the perspective from the ombudsman on what is a really big challenge in the built environment and reflected well beyond the borders of england and the uk more broadly, I think this is the subject that a lot of people have a lot of interest in. So thanks a million for talking to me this afternoon Fantastic. Thank you, simon. Thanks for listening.

Simon: 52:36

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